Best Latin Book for Beginners

[mariek]

<br />I'm trying to decide which book (or books) to get for my independent study of the Latin language. <br /><br />Which book do you think is the best one to get?<br /><br />I've browsed through Wheelock's 6th Edition at the bookstore and it looks OK. Is this a good one or should I look for another one? I also noticed that there is a sort of Workbook for the Wheelock book. Do you have any opinions on this? I browsed through it and it looks like good practice, but I couldn't find the answers to the exercises anywhere, I was expecting to find them in the back of the book. So I'm not so sure about this because I think the lack of ability to check my answers precludes learning Latin efficaciously.<br /><br />I did not see any audio tapes for Latin at my bookstore. Do they exist ? I'm not sure how well I can learn Latin without actually hearing it. Are audio files available for download on the internet ?<br /><br />Thanks for your help...<br /><br />

[benissimus]

There are plenty of books on this very site!<br /><br />I, personally, enjoy Wheelock's Latin, but there is an entire thread on this forum about the attributes and lackings of it. The textbook itself has exercises in the back of the book with answer keys. I never used the accompanying workbook. Wheelock is a very slow-paced course, so you can either take one chapter a week and practice a lot or cram chapters together to make it more like a typical text.<br /><br />I know that Latin audio tapes exist. A Latin teacher I know has some, and I have also seen them in bookstores (Barnes & Noble I think). I don't think you really need to actually hear it though. Speaking it aloud is certainly helpful, but even many advanced readers and speakers cannot understand it when it is spoken to them very well.<br /><br />If you need help correcting work, I would be glad to help. If it's not too long, you can also post it in the forum for translation (although people don't enjoy doing ALL of someone's homework).

[mariek]

<br /><br /><br />It's interesting to hear you say that Wheelock is a slow-paced course. When I was browsing through it I thought it may have been too fast. I'll have to browse through it again. Perhaps what made me think it was fast-paced was the lack of exercises and few examples... or perhaps I just didn't "get" the organization of the book during my brief visit at the bookstore.<br /><br />I didn't know that the Wheelock book had exercises in it. I'm glad you mentioned that they exist at the back of the book. How odd. I'm used to seeing lessons interspersed with exercises. <br /><br />I'm also surprised to hear that it is difficult for advanced speakers to understand spoken Latin. I was really looking forward to trying to speak it. Do you think this is because there is a lack of people to converse/practice with ? <br /><br />Thanks for the offer of help correcting work, I may take take you up on that one day ! ;D<br /><br />

[benissimus]

I think one of the main complaints is the consistency of the book. Certain chapters are very dense and there are some which are separate which seem like they should be together. I think these faults are far from discouraging and not really an issue.<br /><br />There are exercises for each chapter, but there are separate exercises in the back with answer keys. This means that if you want to, you can do a LOT of work just using this book. When you are finished with the book, there are also large passages in the back which are in the original language and either mildly or not at all simplified.<br /><br />Another good feature of the book is that the Sententiae Antiquae (Ancient Sentences) and the story/poetry passages throughout the chapters are all based on original writings. Even in Chapter 1 you can read a few anecdotes in their original text. The drawback to this is that you are given disconnected and out of context sentences. Fortunately, there is a good mix of sentence translation and paragraph translation to compensate.<br /><br />By no means let the difficulty of Latin deter you from speaking it! I speak it all the time, but have no one to listen to me (at least no one who has a clue of what I am saying). It is entirely POSSIBLE for someone to learn to speak Latin, so it is not exactly true to say that advanced learners have trouble understanding it. The fact is that most people simply do not practice this area of communication when it comes to a "dead" language.<br /><br />Feel free to contact me if you have questions or just want to talk (about Latin or anything). I am not the best here, but I have a good grasp of grammar, syntax, and all those other goodies, as well as a load of free time and interest.

[mariek]

<br />I will have to peruse that other thread you mentioned earlier about Wheelock; I haven't gotten to it yet. The fluctuating density of chapters doesn't sound like such a big deal. <br /><br />Thank you for including the translation of Sententiae Antiquae; I wouldn't have understood it otherwise. I saw mention of it somewhere in the beginning of the book, but didn't know what it meant. I started reading the Benjamin D'Ooge Latin for Beginners book on this site and can see than "sententiae" is a plural noun, while the singular must be "sententia". I guess the adjective takes endings which agree with the noun. So my guess is that it would be "sententia antiqua" in singular form? I'm really just taking a wild stab at this. I haven't yet fully absorbed Lesson 2 in the book.<br /><br />When you speak Latin, how do you know you're pronouncing it correctly ? I've looked at the pronunciation guide, but I think some of it is a bit vague without actually _hearing_ examples of spoken Latin. I can already see this happening ... learning how to read and write Latin while not really practicing listening and speaking.<br /><br />Well, I'm sure I will come up with more questions as I learn more...<br /><br />BTW, what does your sig "quod scrisi scripsi" mean ?<br /><br />

[Milito]

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=224;start=0#1100 date=1057646974]<br /><br />I started reading the Benjamin D'Ooge Latin for Beginners book on this site and can see than "sententiae" is a plural noun, while the singular must be "sententia". I guess the adjective takes endings which agree with the noun. So my guess is that it would be "sententia antiqua" in singular form? I'm really just taking a wild stab at this. <br /><br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Your "wild stab" is right on. I'd guess you've absorbed more than you thought! Adjective endings don't necessarily agree with the noun. Adjectives themselves do. For example, I could say "ars antiqua" or "artes antiquae" - the noun "ars" is still a feminine noun, but it has a different set of endings. The adjective "antiqua" maintains its own set of endings, but has to use the ones that correspond with the form that the noun is in. (Don't worry about this too much yet - BLD will explain it all in time. The important point is that you're definitely on the right course.)<br /><br />[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=224;start=0#1100 date=1057646974]<br /><br /><br />When you speak Latin, how do you know you're pronouncing it correctly ? I've looked at the pronunciation guide, but I think some of it is a bit vague without actually _hearing_ examples of spoken Latin. I can already see this happening ... learning how to read and write Latin while not really practicing listening and speaking.<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Speaking and listening to Latin is a bit of a trick, because it's a "dead" language, and no one really uses it anymore. Pronounciations vary depending on whether you're interested in Classical, medieval and/or Church Latin. And as far as the Classical goes.... I believe we're still just making guesses. There are a few threads of conversation talking about various places that "speak" Latin. The other trick to learning to speak Latin is finding someone to speak it WITH.........<br /><br />[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=224;start=0#1100 date=1057646974]<br /><br />BTW, what does your sig "quod scrisi scripsi" mean ?<br /><br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />I would read it as "What I wrote, I wrote", although I believe you could also translate it to any of "What I have written, I have written", or "What I have written, I wrote", or "What I wrote, I have written". I believe Benissimus is taking a quote from the Vulgate (Bible).<br /><br />Kilmeny

[Episcopus]

B.L.D = Vir i.e. the man!<br /><br />Hey <br />Milito,<br /><br />have you read the whole book? <br />I'm on p52 slowly working through it (always do ach exercise and translate the prose if I feel shaky!). <br />If you have, does B.L.D teach everything, cover all parts of general Latin (but not talking about adjectives and agreeing noun(s) separated by the paragraph ;D<br />It seems too good to be true, I always look forward at the difficulty of an exercise 50 pages later ;D and think eheu! <br />But then each exercise I do finally complete as I go on...<br /><br />Worst for me is alius,a,ud; alter, era, erum; unus,a,um; ullus, a , um; nullus, a , um; totus, a, um; solus, a, um; uter, ra, rum; neuter, ra, rum.<br /><br />=) damn annoying gen -ius, dat -i; plural sing. <br /><br />(sorry doing drills)<br /><br />And I hate is, ea, id:<br /><br />is eius ei eum eo; ea eius ei eam ea; id eius ei id eo.<br />ii eorum eis eos eis; eae earum eis eas eis; ea eorum eis ea eis.<br /><br />Damn things.... >:(<br /><br />I hate trying to recognise whether the meaning be this, that or he/she/it >:(<br /><br />I dread illus and co, and hic etc.<br /><br /><br />

[wboneill]

For a pronunciation guide go to http://www.classicsnet.plus.com/readitright.htm. />For readings of verse try http://www.arlt.com.

[Milito]

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=224;start=0#1106 date=1057688413]<br />Hey <br />Milito,<br /><br />have you read the whole book? <br />[/quote]<br />Sorry, no, it's the one I haven't looked at......<br /><br />[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=224;start=0#1106 date=1057688413]<br />Worst for me is alius,a,ud; alter, era, erum; unus,a,um; ullus, a , um; nullus, a , um; totus, a, um; solus, a, um; uter, ra, rum; neuter, ra, rum.<br /><br />And I hate is, ea, id:<br /><br />I dread illus and co, and hic etc.<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Don't take this as a discouragement.... but I hate them too.....<br /><br />Actually, I'm beginning to be reconciled to hic and illus, but quis and co, and all its silly derivatives I swear are becoming the monster under my bed!! I am plowing through a not-very-well-annotated Cicero, and have run into illus, hic and even is (and their friends) enough by now (book 1, section 33 of De Officiis.......) that I'm almost becoming comfortable with them - and just as I start thinking that, one of them pulls a fast one on me.......... <br /><br />Maybe some day someone will come up with some sort of sledgehammer to beat them into submission with..... Although I suppose that that's what the drills are for, isn't it...........<br /><br />Kilmeny

[mariek]

[quote author=wboneill link=board=3;threadid=224;start=0#1108 date=1057689564]<br />For a pronunciation guide go to http://www.classicsnet.plus.com/readitright.htm. />[/quote]<br />The pronunciation guide is exactly what I'm looking for ! Thanks ! I couldn't understand the webpage for the second URL.<br />

[mariek]

OK, I'm going to see whether I can get the quoting thing working as well as you did in your message. We'll find out when it gets posted...<br /><br />[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=224;start=0#1104 date=1057678257]<br />... Adjective endings don't necessarily agree with the noun. Adjectives themselves do. For example, I could say "ars antiqua" or "artes antiquae" - the noun "ars" is still a feminine noun, but it has a different set of endings. The adjective "antiqua" maintains its own set of endings, but has to use the ones that correspond with the form that the noun is in.[/quote]<br /><br />Ack ! I haven't gotten that far yet so this is all Greek to me. I'm sure it'll make more sense once I've covered those topics.<br /><br />[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=224;start=0#1104 date=1057678257]The other trick to learning to speak Latin is finding someone to speak it WITH.........[/quote]<br /><br />So do you have people to speak Latin with ?<br />

[benissimus]

What do you guys mean by "illus" and "co"?<br /><br />There is that irregular adjective Ille, Illa, Illud. I don't blame you for hating that one, but Hic, Haec, Hoc is the real beast. Qui, Quae, Quod is difficult in concept, though by the time you get that you already know that pattern of adjective endings (if you use Wheelock :p )

[Milito]

Benissimus, <br /><br />I was using "illus and co" to mean "ille, illa, illud".... apparently I had a kinda brain-dead moment, as "illus" doesn't exist. Except in the form "illius" in the middle of "ille, illa, illud"..... which is a pretty lame excuse for the goof.... Ah well....<br /><br />Yes, it's the "ille" bunch, the "hic" bunch and the "qui" bunch that I'm very un-fond of. Thank goodness that the "iste" bunch isn't nearly so frequently used! <br /><br />Mariek,<br /><br />No, I haven't got anyone to speak Latin to..... Winnipeg is distinctly lacking in that department! <br /><br />Kilmeny

[Episcopus]

ego erat qui USED illus & co<br /><br />I haven't covered those yet =)<br /><br />actually i haven't moved from p52<br /><br />I hate 9 irreg. adj's and is, ea , id.<br /><br />eum episcopum quia magnus ruberque est amo<br /><br />first i was about to write is episcopus but then DAMN. it's acc. <br /><br />see ? I have to slap myself many a time!

[benissimus]

Haha. Why do you keep saying "episcopus ruber"? You have an obsession with red bishops?

[wboneill]

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=224;start=0#1117 date=1057700785]<br />[quote author=wboneill link=board=3;threadid=224;start=0#1108 date=1057689564]<br />For a pronunciation guide go to http://www.classicsnet.plus.com/readitright.htm. />[/quote]<br />The pronunciation guide is exactly what I'm looking for ! Thanks ! I couldn't understand the webpage for the second URL.<br /><br />[/quote]<br />Glad you like it! For the ARLT files try this direct link:http://www.arlt.co.uk/dhtml/gcse_audio.php<br />

[Episcopus]

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=224;start=0#1195 date=1057895916]<br />Haha. Why do you keep saying "episcopus ruber"? You have an obsession with red bishops?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />not trying to be funny...i just think it's one of those things that sounds cool...for example in french "évêque rouge", which is, incidentally, also episcopus ruber, has a nice ring to it.<br /><br />et verborum copiam magnam non habeo<br /><br /><br />hey mariek, we are both in the same boat trust me. I haven't moved from p.52 ...these conjugations just go over my head.<br /><br />At least the subjunctive is 100 pages later. <br /><br />

[mariek]

[quote author=wboneill link=board=3;threadid=224;start=15#1202 date=1057908939]link:http://www.arlt.co.uk/dhtml/gcse_audio.php[/quote]<br /><br />Thanks for the new link, it works ! Wow, there are a lot of works enumerated on that page. I downloaded one of the files (Ovid Metamorphoses X) and noticed that these people recite differently than the guy who recites for Viva Voce (http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/). The ARLT people recite with what seems like more emotion. The Viva Voce guy recites more methodically and mechanically.<br />

[benissimus]

Many people believe that Latin was spoken very methodically, and even monotonously. I thought the arlt recitings had too much of a British accent to be an accurate reflection of original Latin, but that the Viva Voce recitations sounded too much like modern Romance languages. Who's to say what's correct?

[mariek]

I don't know enough to distinguish the difference at this point in time. I guess we'll just have to hop into our time machine and hear it first hand for ourselves ...

[Episcopus]

NICE! ---->http://www.arlt.co.uk/dhtml/gcse_audio.php<br /><br />SUNT MULTI BONI POPULI IN eo foro<br /><br /><br />=)<br /><br />And I KNOW those pronunciations are accurate. <br /><br />http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/<br /><br />=correct<br /><br />mariek you really have made this forum come alive ;D<br />

[mariek]

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=224;start=15#1271 date=1058040537][/quote]SUNT MULTI BONI POPULI IN eo foro<br /> ??? There are many good people in the market .... ???<br /><br />mariek you really have made this forum come alive ;D<br />I like to think that it's team effort.<br />TEAM = Together Everyone Achieves More<br />I saw that on a t-shirt somewhere a couple years ago. <br />

[benissimus]

Populus in the plural? Maybe it means communities...

[Episcopus]

well I'm a freak so I declined this forum <br /><br />forum fora<br />fori fororum<br />foro foris<br />forum fora<br />foro foris<br /><br />hah I think!<br /><br />hey beniss - do we use Populus in Latin as the english plural people?<br /><br />

[Episcopus]

multis feminis pulchris equisque amor<br /><br />-hey what does that mean?<br /><br />I tried 'by many pretty women and horses am I loved'.<br /><br />or does by in the ablative go like that?<br /><br />for all i know is cause, means, accompaniment, manner. <br /><br />I dislike the word 'cum'; it is nasty<br />

[Magistra]

multis feminis pulchris equisque amor<br /><br />-hey what does that mean?<br /><br />I tried 'by many pretty women and horses am I loved'.<br /><br />or does by in the ablative go like that?<br /><br />for all i know is cause, means, accompaniment, manner.<br /><br />I dislike the word 'cum'; it is nasty<br /><br />Magistra:<br /><br />The way it is written it means<br /><br />(The) love for (Dat.) many pretty women & horses.<br /><br />Interesting......<br /><br />I think you're trying to say <br /><br />A multis feminis pulchris et equis amor. ???<br /><br />(Ablative of agent)<br /><br />Magistra<br /><br />PS Get over the teenage obsession with "cum" -- it's a very common word in Latin with multiple meanings!<br /><br /><br />

[Episcopus]

[quote author=Magistra link=board=3;threadid=224;start=15#1386 date=1058228412]<br /> The way it is written it means<br /><br />(The) love for (Dat.) many pretty women & horses.<br /><br />Interesting......<br /><br />I think you're trying to say <br /><br />A multis feminis pulchris et equis amor. ???<br /><br />(Ablative of agent)<br /><br />Magistra<br /><br />PS Get over the teenage obsession with "cum" -- it's a very common word in Latin with multiple meanings!<br /><br /><br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Ablative of agent! That's the one.<br /><br />And with reference to P.S. - I resent that! <br />I expressed my sincere dislike of the word and never mentioned nor implied teenage obsessions.<br />I also hate aliud, and id; proelium, Rhenus, thebanus and many more! I was in the habit of disliking frumentum but I have grown to love it.<br /><br />Please don't assume that every teenager is a dirty bastard!<br /><br /><br />