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about impf. subj.

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about impf. subj.

Postby Junya » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:43 pm

Tu frondens floruisti in alia vicissitudine,
quam Adam omne genus humanum produceret.


Hi.
I'm unclear about the subj. impf. of produceret and can't translate it accurately.
Is it translated just as a simple past fact, "produced" ?
I checked several places of Gildersleeve myself eagerly, but the question has not been solved.
Could you direct me to the right place of the book (Allen & Greenough is ok too) ?
And please show me your translation of produceret.


A translation of above quotation is, though inaccurate,
Tu frondens floruisti in alia vicissitudine,
quam Adam omne genus humanum produceret.

You letting out leaves have blossomed in your turn as compared to Adam's turn when he produced the whole human race.



My thought.
1. If I translate the impf. produceret as a simple past fact "Adam produced" the translation is smooth.
But I don't have a sure grammatical backup-knowledge to do so.

2. produceret as progressive, continued action "Adam was producing" doesn't seem good, though it would be good if Adam is thought to have kept producing until tu (Mary the mother of Christ according to the booklet of my CD) frondens floruisti.

3, produceret as conative, intended, attempted action "Adam was going to produce" is odd, because Adm's production of human race occurred before tu frondens floruisti.
If "Adam tried to produce", I don't know if it is a correct translation but it seems acceptable even if tu frondens floruisti takes place after it.

4. Impf. of disappointment "Adam would produce the whole human race" maybe fits in the sentence, if by tu frondens Adam's role was ended halfway..

5. If a potentiality or a guess of the writer is implied by the subjunctive form of produceret, "Adam's role where he would produce the whole human race", or with plupf. nuance "Adam's turn when he would have been producing", the translation is somewhat unlikely, because Adam's producing human race should be an obvious fact and is no matter of potentiality and doesn't need a guess.
If the subj. is just a way of mild expression, it is ok.




-------
There is another question about this sentence, about quam, but please treat it after the question on producere is solved.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby adrianus » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:51 pm

I would say // Sic dicam:
"You when you bloomed have put forth your flower in/via an alternative/mutation other than Adam did [in the process of/as he went about] producing every type of human."
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby Junya » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:20 pm

Hi. :)

Your translation seems good, but could you explain this sentence grammatically, especially about producere ?
I understand the general meaning of this sentence, but am not clear about its grammatical structure.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby adrianus » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:25 pm

Non aevi classici est latinitas aevi medii. Semper medio aevo variat usus subjunctivi modi et ab usu classico errat. Hîc loco subjunctivum ad processum continuum pertinet, ut imaginor, quo stirpes humanum ex semine Adae crescunt, qui usus aptus est et aevo classico, nisi fallor.

Medieval latin isn't classical latin. The subjunctive in medieval latin may often ignore classical rules for the sequence of tenses. I read the imperfect subjunctive there as continuing over time, as generations spring from Adam's seed, which is fine also in classical latin, I believe.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby Junya » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:43 pm

Adrianus, Interaxus, thank you.


Adrianus wrote :
I read the imperfect subjunctive there as continuing over time, as generations spring from Adam's seed, which is fine also in classical latin, I believe.

Your interpretation is good. That completely solves my problem about produceret.


Interaxus,
the translation on the booklet of my CD (by Sequentia) was almost the same as the translation you introduced me to.
I thought the translation was good, but was not sure about its grammatical backup.







------
Now let me ask you about the use of quam.

Tu frondens floruisti in alia vicissitudine,
quam Adam omne genus humanum produceret.


This quam would be linked with alia,
but.....I don't know how to describe my problem....
If it writes this way I would easily understand.
in alia vicissitudine quam quando (or, if you like, quomodo) Adam omne...produceret
Without quando (= in sua vicissitudine) it is difficult for me to understand the grammatical structure.
Do you understand what is my problem ?
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby adrianus » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:58 pm

In medieval latin I suspect this // Ut suspicor, in medii aevi latinâ habes hoc: "alio modo quam" = "alio modo quo", "eodem modo quam" = "eodem modo quo"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby Junya » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:03 am

I, too, thought this quam may be in fact quo,
and checked L&S for quo,
but in the quo page there was no definition with comparative sense.

And, supposing alio modo quo means in another way in which...., I noticed that the comparative sense drops.

What is difficut in understanding alio modo quam (in alia vicissitudine quam) is that the quam is somehow pregnant.
I mean, in alio modo quam, the quam seems to be a fusion of << particle of comparison + modo quo (in the way in which) >>.

What do you think ?

(By the way, I would take vicissitudo or vicis as meaning a turn, or an opportunity, or a role, rather than a way, or a manner.
But this is off the current discussion.)
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby adrianus » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:20 pm

Junya wrote:What do you think?

I don't think you can always approach language like that and you just have to accept usage and practice, and idiomatic expressions. It's meaning is relatively clear, surely.

Nonnè melius est interdùm, praesertim sensu intellecto sicut hîc, aliter linguam tractari, consuetudinem exercitationemque ac idiomata audiri.

Junya wrote:(By the way, I would take vicissitudo or vicis as meaning a turn, or an opportunity, or a role, rather than a way, or a manner.
But this is off the current discussion.)

No, I wasn't saying that. I translated vicissitudo as "alternative/mutation". I was putting the form to you to look at.
Id non dico. Sic in sermones anglicos jam verti: "alternative/mutation". Ut formam spectes, te adhibui.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby Junya » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:51 pm

Finally, make me sure about this.

alio modo quo means in another way in which ?
eodem modo quo means in the same way in which ?

The way these expressions express comparison is different from the way alio modo quam, eodem modo quam do.
alio modo quam... would mean "in another way than in that way in which...".

Yes, the meaning of them may be understandable by guessing, but I want to find a backup of the guess in L&S and Gildersleeve.
Last edited by Junya on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby Junya » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:10 pm

As shown above, my understanding of alio modo quam is vague.
So, though you advise me to simply accept the usage, could you explain, iff possibe, why there isn't eo modo quo after quam ?


The structure would be clearer to me if it writes
Tu produxisti alio modo quam eo modo quo Adam produceret.
Tu produxisti alio modo quam Adam produceret
is unclear.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby adrianus » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:41 pm

Junya wrote:So, though you advise me to simply accept the usage, could you explain, iff possibe, why there isn't eo modo quo after quam ?

Because Hildegard didn't think it was necessary in terms of the Latin she spoke (I propose), there is no room in the musical line for it, and she didn't care if her Latin doesn't translate word for word to English.
Quod latinitas Hildegardae auctoris id non requirit (ut conjecto), caret ei in lineâ spatium, et non curae Hildegardae est quod verbum pro verbo verborum suorum non vertatur in sermones anglicos.

Yes, it sounds awkward to me but maybe it didn't sound awkward at the time.
Ita, auribus meis non bene sonat, forsit aliter auribus aequalum auctoris.

Tene memoriam, conjecto, non scio.
Remember that I am supposing. I don't know the answer.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby adrianus » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:04 am

Adam omne genus humanum in vicissitudine produceret.
Tu ens produxit in alia vicissitudine quam Adam omne genus humanum produceret.


Adam would have produced every type of man in a successive form [/successively].
You produced a being in a successive form differently [differently successively / i.e., in a different successive form ] than Adam would have produced every human type [but he didn't here, so contrary to fact and imperfect subjunctive unaffected by sequence of tenses].

Isn't that grammatical in English, with "in alia vicissitudine" considered and translated adverbially?
"In alia vicissitudine" adverbio habito et verso, nonnè recta ibi est grammatica anglica?

Vide A&G §277 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=AG+277)
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby Junya » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:23 pm

Adam omne genus humanum in vicissitudine produceret.
Tu ens produxit in alia vicissitudine quam Adam omne genus humanum produceret.

Adam would have produced every type of man in a successive form [/successively].
You produced a being in a successive form differently [differently successively / i.e., in a different successive form ] than Adam would have produced every human type [but he didn't here, so contrary to fact and imperfect subjunctive unaffected by sequence of tenses].

Isn't that grammatical in English, with "in alia vicissitudine" considered and translated adverbially?
"In alia vicissitudine" adverbio habito et verso, nonnè recta ibi est grammatica anglica?

Vide A&G §277 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=AG+277)



Thank you ! :D
Though I'm not sure if your interpretation of alia and vicissitudo is right (I may ask you about this, but I feel endless questioning would be bad, so I don't), A&G 277 is perfectly explaining the grammatical structure of that sentence.
If in alia vicissitudine is used as an adverb, the quam Adam omne genus humanum produceret is easily understood grammatically with no problem.

You might feel I'm persistent, but could you tell me how you found the page ? This is the last request.
I want to learn the advanced learner's technique.







added later
------
Tu frondens floruisti in alia vicissitudine,
quam Adam omne genus humanum produceret.

I'm sorry, but when I reviewed this sentence with the knowledge I've got from A&G 277, I found a difficulty again.
I'm not sure I can select the adverb which expresses in alia vicissitudine in one word, since I interpret the vicissitudo as "turn"(like in dice games, "now it's your turn"), while you interpret it differently.

I started brooding over the quam again.

Perhaps the quam has a usage fusing with relative, as in the English than.
In "There is more money than is needed.",
"than is needed" means "than which is needed".
Then in alia vicissitudine quam Adam produceret might mean in alia vicissitudine quam qua Adam produceret.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby adrianus » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:30 pm

Junya wrote:could you tell me how you found the page

I knew that adjectives and phrases can be used adverbially so I looked for a reference to "adverbial phrases" in A&G which had to be there.
Jam scivi ut adjectiva clausulaeque pro adverbiis stare possint, ergo commemorationem in A&G grammaticam inquisivi quod id ibi esse certus fui.

Don't try to translate this literally, word for word. If you can't make something fit, try something else.
Verbatim, verbum pro verbo, hoc convertere noli conari. Si non aptum unum periculum, tenta aliud.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: about impf. subj.

Postby Junya » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:22 am

No, no, I'm not trying to make a literral translation.
I just want to understand the grammatical structure of that sentence.

As to translation, I would translate that sentence as
You.... in a different role than Adam's role who produced...
Tu frondens floruisti in alia vicissitudine,
quam Adam omne genus humanum produceret.

I don't like literal translation and tend to translate with free wording,
but, to confirm the correctness of the translation, I want to understand as precisely as possible the grammatical structure (and the meanings of the words).

I'm sorry and thank you for this long correspondance. :)
Communicating with you, I could find some answers from your posts and also by myself.
Thank you very much. :)
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