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Latin Praxis at SLU help?

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Latin Praxis at SLU help?

Postby Fingers » Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:20 am

Hello all. I’m studying Latin on my own, relying on various books and websites. The resources provided here are great and are proving very helpful, and there is much comfort seeing others who've taken a similar lonely approach find some level of interaction in these forums (..or do you all say fora?). Anyhow, another place I’ve also found helpful is Saint Louis University’s website where there are many pages of exercises that make use of the Wheelock vocabulary. There is one problem, however, in that I’ve reached a point where there are no more answer keys covering the exercises, and I’m a bit uneasy about pressing on without them. I would like to continue, because being able to understand the earlier ones has given me a real boost in confidence. If I could, every so often, post some of my translations here, and have someone take a look and tell me whether I’ve gone all wrong, I’d sure appreciate it.

For starters I’ve taken a stab at translating Sentence Practice 6, exercises 1 – 101

1 antîquî librî

ancient books (subject) / of the ancient book

2 perpetuâ cûrâ

by/with/from continuous worry

3 perpetuîs cûrîs

to/for continuous worries / by/with/from continuous worries

4 dea pulchra

beautiful goddess (subject)

5 in caelîs nostrîs

in our skies

6 culpâs amâbant?

They loved crimes?

7 tyrannî însidiae

treacheries of the tyrant

8 bonus liber

good book (subject)

9 librô bonô

to/for the good book / by/with/from the good book

10 dê lîberô

about the children

11 dê cônsiliîs tyranni

concerning the counsels of the tyrant

12 dê tyrannî însidiîs

concerning the treacheries of the tryrant

13 dê rosîs Graecîs

concerning the Greek roses

14 vitium malum

bad crime (subject) / bad crime (object)

15 perîcula vitiôrum malôrum

the dangers of bad crimes

16 verba librî bonî

the words of the good book

17 magistrae librî

the teacher’s books

18 magistrae librôrum

of the teacher’s books

19 magistrae librîs

by/with/from the teacher’s books / to/for the teacher’s books

20 magistrae discipulae

the teachers of the student / the students of the teacher

21 magister vester

your teacher

22 officia magistrôrum vestrôrum

the duties of your teachers

23 sânus animus

a sane mind

24 animôrum sânôrum

of sane minds

25 vestrôrum animôrum sânôrum

of your sane minds

26 dôna vestrôrum animôrum sânôrum

the gifts of your sane minds

27 vêra discipula

a true student

28 vêrî discipulî

true students/ of the true student.

29 dôna vêrôrum discipulôrum

gifts of the true students.

30 dônîs vêrôrum discipulôrum

to/for the gifts of true students / by/from the gifts of the true students

31 librî poêtârum

books of the poets

32 librî poêtârum lîberôrum

books of the free poets

33 in secundô librô

in the second book

34 in secundô librô poêtae antîquî

in the second book of the ancient poet.

35 erant bonae.

They were good.

36 erant bonae sententiae populî.

They were the people of good wisdom.

37 vidêre possum.

We are able to see.

38 vidêre poterô.

I will be able to see.

39 ubi portâs antîquâs vidêre poterô?

When will I be able to see the ancient gates?

40 ubi portâs antîquâs vidêre in tuâ patriâ poterô?

When will I be able to see the ancient gates in your country?

41 quid poterimus vidêre?

What will we be able to see?

42 quid poterimus in caelô vidêre?

What will we be able to see in the sky?

43 quid hodiê vidêbimus in caelîs nostrîs?

What will we see in our skies today?

44 quid hodiê vidêre poterimus in caelîs nostrîs?

What will we be able to see in our skies today?

45 stultî vitia mala culpâsque amâbant

The fools loved bad things and faults.

46 fêmina Rômâna erat, sed vir erat Graecus.

The woman was Roman, but the man was Greek.

47 nôn sum Rômânus, sed vir Americânus.

I am not a Roman, but an American man.

48 pulchra fêmina nôn est Graeca; Rômâna est.

The pretty woman is not Greek; she is Roman.

49 nôn erat Graeca sed Rômâna.

She was not Greek but Roman.

50 nôn sumus Rômânî sed Americânî.

We are not Roman but American.

51 Graecus Rômânum laudâbat.

The Greek praised the Roman.

52 Graecus puer Rômânum agricolam laudâbit.

The Greek boy will praise the Roman farmer.

53 Graecî puerî Rômânôs agricolâs laudâbant.

The Greek boys praised the Roman farmers.

54 multa dabat.

He gave many things.

55 multam pecûniam dabit Graecus agricola.

The Greek farmer will give much money.

56 nautae bonô multam pecûniam dabit Graecus agricola.

The Greek farmer will give much money to the good sailor.

57 multa Rômânîs dabit.

He will give many things to the Romans.

58 multa Rômânîs dabit, sed pauca Graecîs.

He will give many things to the Romans, but few to the Greeks.

59 Graecîs magna dôna dabant, sed Rômânîs parva.

They give large gifts to the Greeks, but little ones to the Romans.

60 philosophia Graeca multa Rômânîs dabat.

Greek philosophy gave much to the Romans.

61 multa Rômânîs dabat philosophia Graeca.

Greek philosophy gave many things to the Romans.

62 amabâtis patriâs vestrâs.

You all loved your countries.

63 Graecam patriam nôn amant.

They do not love the Greek country.

64 dôna Graeca habent.

They have Greek gifts.

65 sî Graecam patriam nôn amant, dôna Graeca nôn habêbunt.

If they do not love the Greek country, they will not have Greek gifts.

66 perpetuum bellum magnum malum est.

Everlasting war is a great evil.

67 in bellô perpetuô patria valêre nôn potest.

In continuous war the country is not able to be well.

68 poteritne patria valêre in bellô perpetuô?

Will the country be able to be well in continuous war?

69 dê bellô tyrannus semper côgitâbit.

The tyrant will always think about the war.

70 Graecî Rômânîque patriae nostrae multa dabant.

The Greeks and Romans gave much to our country.

71 in animîs Graecôrum Graecârumque, philosophia semper valêbat.

In the minds of Greek men and Greek women, philosophy was always well.

72 in Graecôrum Graecârumque animîs, philosophia semper valêbat.

In the minds of Greek men and Greek women, philosophy was always well.

73 valetne philosophia hodiê?

Is the philosophy well today?

74 puerôs vidêbunt.

They will see the boys.

75 puerôs adiuvâre poterit.

He will be able to help the boys.

76 magistrî puerôs vidêbant.

The teachers saw the boys.

77 Graecî magistrî Rômânôs puerôs vidêbunt.

The Greek teachers will see the Roman boys.

78 Graecî nunc tyrannôs nôn tolerâbunt.

The Greeks will not now endure tyrants.

79 vitium nôn tolerâbô.

I will not endure a vice.

80 vitium nôn tolerâre poterunt.

They will not be able to endure the vice.

81 forma rosae

The beauty of the rose.

82 forma rosârum

The beauty of the roses.

83 magna rosârum forma

The great beauty of the roses.

84 fêmina rosâs servâbat.

The woman kept roses.

85 propter magnam rosârum formam, fêminae rosâs servâre debêbat.

On account of the great beauty of the roses, he ought to have kept roses for the woman.

86 Graecôs librôs nôn poteram conservâre.

I was not able to preserve the Greek books.

87 propter magnum perîculum, librôs nôn conservâbam.

On account of the great danger, I did not preserve the books.

88 in secundô bellô erat magnum exitium.

In the second war there was great destruction.

89 in secundô bellô, vidêbâmus exitium magnum Graecôrum librôrum.

In the second war, we saw the great destruction of the Greek books.

90 Graecôrum librôrum vidêbâmus exitium.

We saw the destruction of the Greek books.

91 Graecôrum librôrum in secundô bellô, vidêbâmus exitium magnum.

Of the Greek books in the second war, we saw the great destruction.

92 in librîs multîs Graecî conservâbant philosophiam.

They preserved philosophy in many Greek books.

93 in philosophiâ antîquâ Graecôrum lîberî esse possumus.

In the ancient philosophy of the Greeks, we can be free.

94 nunc dea fêminâs iuvâbit.

Now the goddess will help the women.

95 deae adiuvâbant fêminâs Graecâs.

The goddesses helped the Greek women.

96 Graecae deae saepe fêminâs virôsque adiuvâbant in perîculîs.

The Greek goddesses often helped men and women in dangers.

97 vestra vitia nôn tolerâre possum.

We are not able to endure your crimes.

98 multî tuam sapientiam laudâbunt.

Many will praise your wisdom.

99 culpô igitur vîtâs vestrâs.

I therefore blame your lives.

100 in vîtâ Graecâ, philosophia antîqua valêbat.

In Greek life, the ancient philosophy was well.

101 vitia antîquae vîtae dêbêmus culpâre?

Should we blame the vices of ancient life?

~Fingers~
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Postby Ulpianus » Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:07 pm

That's quite a chunk of answers to check, and I don't promise I haven't missed something, but they look basically right to me. It might be better if you posted only those you were really doubtful about.

Two tiny points:

1. Watch the imperfect, which you are quite habitually translating with a simple past. That can be right, and an imperfect translation can be an over-translation, but you need to watch it. It's best to get in the habit of starting with an imperfect translation and then tone it down if it seems over done. For instance here:

Graecî puerî Rômânôs agricolâs laudâbant.


You translate simply "praised", but the imperfect tells us they "were praising", they "went on praising", they "kept praising", or something of that sort, whereas "praised" could mean "on one occasion".

2. Sometimes you need to find a more specific word to cover a noun or verb which has a wide range of meanings. For instance:

71 in animîs Graecôrum Graecârumque, philosophia semper valêbat.

In the minds of Greek men and Greek women, philosophy was always well.


I am not sure what it means for philosophy to "be well"; it's certaintly a long way from idiomatic English. What valeo means in this context is "was influential" or "was important": "Philosophy was always important to the minds of Greek men and women". You often need to read your translations to make sure they read as real English sentences.

(BTW, you can spare us and yourself the macrons when posting sentences: they are a reminder put in by grammarians for learners, but (unlike accents in Greek) no part of "real" Latin.)
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Postby benissimus » Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:04 pm

I agree with what Ulpianus said.

You can translate Imperfect as simple past but if so then it will get confusing when you get to the Perfect tenses. It is easier to see Imperfect as a continuous action by translating it with those key words "was ____ing, etc."

Please post the questions you are most concerned with and if you want to try to catch some of the other mistakes that you are not aware of, then just post random ones from the rest of the assignment instead of all of them. Fortunately, I have no life so I went over them all and found a few more mistakes :wink: :

10 dê lîberô

about the children

liberi can mean "children", but in the singular it can only mean "free", not "child"

11 dê cônsiliîs tyranni

concerning the counsels of the tyrant

Correct, but I think consilium usually translates best when you use the word "plan". It really means "something that is discussed/deliberated" either in a group or in one's own mind (hence "counsel, judgment")

39 ubi portâs antîquâs vidêre poterô?

When will I be able to see the ancient gates?

40 ubi portâs antîquâs vidêre in tuâ patriâ poterô?

When will I be able to see the ancient gates in your country?

ubi can mean "when" only when used relatively (i.e. "I will see you when/where you come"). When used interrogatively, it can only mean "where".

45 stultî vitia mala culpâsque amâbant

The fools loved bad things and faults.

I would translate mala as "evils".

59 Graecîs magna dôna dabant, sed Rômânîs parva.

They give large gifts to the Greeks, but little ones to the Romans.

Simple mistake here... dabant is Imperfect past, not Present.
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Postby Fingers » Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:44 am

Thank you both for the replies. You’ve zeroed in on some problem areas I didn’t know about. I’ve narrowed down the rest of Sentence Practice 6 to just twenty or so -- hopefully with translations that reflect your advice. :)

103 plenus sapientiae erat agricola.

The farmer used to be full of wisdom. (I’m not sure if ‘used to be full of’ fits with the imperfect. Or should it be ‘was being full of wisdom’? That sounds rather awkward)

239 liber nos adiuvabit cogitare de populo.

The free will encourage us to think about the people…. (I don't really get this one. 'Nos' doesn't translate as 'us', does it?)

104 plena periculorum / plena periculis

Full of dangers / satisfied with/by dangers

106 nostra patria plena magnarum feminarum est.

Our country is full of great women.

108 vitiorum plenae sunt vitae malorum nautârum.

The lives of wicked sailors are full of evils.

112 sine vitiis, nostrae vitae multa bona habebunt.

Without sins, our lives will have many good things.

115 vir est vitiis liber.

The man is free from evils.

128 nautae consilia erunt bona.

The plans of the sailor will be good.

141 quare bonas sententias habebunt.

Hence they will have good ideas.

142 vitia liberorum liberarumque tolerare possum.

We can endure the evils of free men and free women.

150 si quando laudabis tyrannum, perpetuam culpam habebis.

If ever you will praise a tyrant, you will have everlasting blame.

160 propter sapientiam antiquorum, Graecis perpetuam famam dêbemus.

On account of the wisdom of the ancients, we owe everlasting fame to the Greeks.

169 si Romanos dei adiuvabunt, non errabunt.

If the gods will help the Romans, they will not go astray.

176 sed ubi possumus esse sine malis?

But where can we exist without evils?

244 Graeci Romanique multos poetarum magnorum libros saepe laudabant.

The Greeks and Romans were often praising many books of the great poets.

247 hodie libri antiqui consilia bona dare possunt.

Today the ancient books can give good suggestions.

249 magna verba antiqui libri non culpabimus.

We will not blame the great words of the ancient book.

254 non salvi eramus sine bono remedio vitiorum.

We were not being safe of evils without a good cure.

~Fingers~
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Postby benissimus » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:02 am

I could really not find a single error except the last one:

Fingers wrote:254 non salvi eramus sine bono remedio vitiorum.

We were not being safe of evils without a good cure.


While you essentially have the same meaning, you probably got confused by the genitive plural vitiorum and put it with salvi. It actually modifies the word remedio, so "a cure of evils", or to put it more smoothly: "a cure for evils".

vale amice
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Postby Ulpianus » Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:14 pm

vitia liberorum liberarumque tolerare possum.

We can endure the evils of free men and free women.


Possum is singular: "I can" (we would be possumus).

Is liberi (a word with which the writer of these sentences appears to have an obsession) here being used for children (plural, so it could be)? I'm not sure I've ever come across it with a distinction between gender, but it might make more sense: "I can put up with faults in boys and girls".

103: could be "used to be" or just "was". Rely on context.

239: I just find this odd. Unless the writer had in mind Liber (proper noun for Bacchus!) I guess your translation is correct, but it seems a peculiar thought.
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Postby ingrid70 » Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:24 pm

about 239, perhaps he means 'book' here? The book encourages us to think about the people?

just a thought,

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Postby Ulpianus » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:35 pm

Ingrid's idea makes sense. The drafter of these sentences seems to have a total fixation with "liber" in its various guises (along with vice, guilt, the relative merits of the Greeks and Romans, and gender inclusive language). All very 21st century!
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Postby benissimus » Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:01 am

The Wheelock Workbook focuses a lot on repetition. I wouldn't be able to take it but repetition is a good way to learn for many. Furthermore, Wheelock says some very strange things throughout the book in the synthesized sentences. It seems like everything is about tyrants, free men, conspiracies, treachery and the state... supposedly preparation for Cicero.
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Postby Fingers » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:57 am

Thanks again.

I'm always interested in trying new books, I'll check out the Wheelock Workbook. :)

By the way, do any of you have an opinion regarding Rhoda Hendricks' book, 'Latin Made Simple'?

~Fingers~
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Postby Episcopus » Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:11 pm

Technically it would be foris. And why the circumflices? :lol: It looks like bloody Welsh.
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Postby Episcopus » Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:13 pm

Fingers wrote:
By the way, do any of you have an opinion regarding Rhoda Hendricks' book, 'Latin Made Simple'?

~Fingers~


Well if you're interested in learning Latin just complete Latin For Beginners by Benjamin L. D'Ooge. Available from this very place.
http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/108/author_id/13/

Let's be fair. Ignore the rest.
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Postby Ulpianus » Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:48 pm

I don't know the book, but if the comments on Amazon about innaccuracy are half-way true, I'd avoid it. You seem to have a pretty competent and accurate approach to grammar anyway, and I doubt you need it to be "made simple".

I think it's a bad idea to have too many basic books. You need to find one and stick to it: Wheelock is well thought of if you want a traditional grammatical approach; Episcopus and others speak highly of D'Ooge's book -- which does seem to have some merit, not least that you can get plenty of help here, and it's only the price of a download. I know some people who prefer the more text-based approach of Reading Latin. But back one horse and stick to it: reading too many will confuse you, because they introduce concepts in a different order, and simplify things differently.

If you want to buy extra books, I'd concentrate on getting a decent reference grammar (perhaps not a blockbuster to start with) which may help elucidate subtle points and, above all, a good dictionary. More even than grammar, the stumbling block to reading fluently is vocabulary, and you want a decent one (but not too big: even if you can afford it, the Oxford Latin Dictionary is not really right for beginners). I've always liked Cassell's, which I find a handy size.

If you find grammatical terms hard going there is a book called "English grammar for students of latin" which I think on brief acquaintance looks quite handy. If you are a plutocrat, the Oxford Classical Dictionary (really an encyclopaedia) is often valuable, as is a decent historical atlas: either would be more useful than a really expensive dictionary at this stage.
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Postby Fingers » Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:22 am

That's what I'm starting to think about Latin Made Simple as well.

*throws it arcross room*

But seriously, you are right. I tried several times to get started with Latin before, and I'm sure one reason I did not do well was that I'd always bog myself down with a bunch of books at once (like four or five) instead of just focusing on a good one. I seem to be making better progress now by sticking mainly to Wheelock's 6th edition and related material, so I ought to stay the course.... It is tempting though to switch to the D'Ooge book, or use it as my *one* substantial side-dish. I sure like what I've tried of it. Wheelock's recuring theme of tyrants, books/free men and treacheries against the state - all that does get a little old sometimes. :)

D'Ooge or Wheelock... D'Ooge.. Wheelock... hmm..

On my computer I use two dictionary programs: 'Words' and 'Digital Latin Lexicon'.

323 Dei videbimus in caelo gloriam perpetuam, vitiis liberi post hanc vitam, et semper valebimus, sine morbis, sine pecunia, sine ira.

We shall see the everlasting glory of God in heaven, free from sins after this life, and always we shall be well, without sicknesses, without wealth, without anger.

(not really sure about 'vitiis liberi')

353 Alii huic magistrae gloriam dant, alii hanc magistram culpant.

Some are giving renown to this teacher, others are blaming this teacher.

361 Nomina magnorum scriptorum Graecorum in hoc libro scribemus quod amamus carmina illorum scriptorum et illis perpetuam gloriam dare debemus.

We shall write the names of the great Greek wirters in this book becuase we love the plays of those writers and we ought to give everlasting glory to those.

368 Sine ulla ira gloriam regi vero dare debemus quod ille virtute magno et laboribus multis patriam nostram servabit.

Without any anger we ought to give glory to the true king becuase that man shall serve our country with great virtue and many labors.

369 Neutrum vitium nostram patriam vincet quod rex noster et regîna virtutibus magnis nostram terram servabunt.

Neither vice shall defeat our country because by great virtues our king and queen shall protect our land.

~Fingers~>

;)
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Postby benissimus » Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:42 am

323 Dei videbimus in caelo gloriam perpetuam, vitiis liberi post hanc vitam, et semper valebimus, sine morbis, sine pecunia, sine ira.

We shall see the everlasting glory of God in heaven, free from sins after this life, and always we shall be well, without sicknesses, without wealth, without anger.

(not really sure about 'vitiis liberi')

You have this correct, but with verbs and nouns/adjectives of freeing or separation, we see this Ablative of Separation. Also, this may not be apparent, but the liberi is referring to the "we".

368 Sine ulla ira gloriam regi vero dare debemus quod ille virtute magno et laboribus multis patriam nostram servabit.

Without any anger we ought to give glory to the true king becuase that man shall serve our country with great virtue and many labors.

Here "serve" should be "keep/save" or some other word of similar meaning. It is easy to confuse servare with "serve", but the English word "serve" actually comes from the Latin word servire.
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Postby Fingers » Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:41 am

Thanks again. :)

Here's one that's giving me more problems. The beginning 'Multis in locis, isti..' looks like it should be simple but it's unlike anything I've tried before.

98 Multis in locis, isti nullos libros habere poterant et malas morbos tolerabant quod nimium laborum in agris habebant sub tyrannis avaris.

For many in positions, such men could have no books and they were enduring bad sicknesses becuase they were having too much of labors in the fields under greedy tyrants.

Or... For many in passages of litterature, those men could have no books...

Or maybe.... For many in the ranks, those could have no books....

232 Si disces illos de Graeca philosophiâ antiquos libros, et si hanc sapientiam veram habebis, nihil te terrebit in tota vita et numquam te homines stulti culpabunt, quod semper in corpore liber et in animo sanus remanebis.

If you will learn those ancient books about Greek philosophy, and if you will keep this true wisdom, nothing will deter you in all life, and foolish men will never find fault with you, because you shall always remain unrestrained in body and sane in mind.

~Fingers~>
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Postby benissimus » Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:26 am

I think what you're confused about is the arrangement of the words in the first sentence. Instead of simple preposition+adjective+noun, the preposition can be placed between the agreeing adjective and noun as in multis in locis, which is the same as in multis locis. Thus, you can graduate cum laude (with praise) or magna cum laude (with great praise). Also, I think you meant malos morbos because if it really did say malas morbos, then we have a problem.

Other than that little point, both your sentences look fine to me (hope I didn't miss anything). 8)
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Postby Fingers » Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:29 am

Of course, it should have clicked right away. With D'Ooge's book I'd even done some exercises with adjective + preposition 'in' + noun arrangements... 'Diana, lunae clarae pulchra dea, lata in silva habitat.' Diana, beautiful goddess of the clear moon, lives in the wide forest. :)
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