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Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

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Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby daddion » Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:27 am

I am new to Latin and too cheap to purchase Wheelock's Latin if I can get basic Latin for free. Are these "older" texts as good as Wheelock's? Thank you.
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Jeff Tirey » Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:58 pm

Yes they are good. Some of them are still in print today and are very well respected. Still, Wheelock's might be a good choice for you because one current disadvantage with our Latin content is that there are no keys to check your progress.<br /><br />If you are learning on your own my suggestion is to choose material with exercises and keys available. You can then always use the Latin grammars found on Textkit for follow-up reading and clarification.<br />
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby daddion » Thu Apr 03, 2003 4:41 pm

What do you mean "key?"
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Jeff Tirey » Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:11 pm

Hi Again,<br /><br />I mean an answer key for grammar, translation and composition exercises.<br /><br />jeff
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby GladiusRomae » Mon Apr 07, 2003 3:04 am

These Latin grammars, especially Allen and Greenough, are very good as reference, but I would caution you not to try and pick up the language just from them. Wheelocks, or some other such text is best for beginners. Once you have mastered the basics of syntax (a basic study of wheelock), then you ought to move on to reading some basic original prose, such as Caesar. Then, depending on taste, you could tackle Cicero, Virgil, or perhaps Catullus; composition is not a common goal these days, but if such is your interest, i would suggest Bradley's Arnold or North and Hillard.
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby daddion » Mon Apr 07, 2003 4:04 am

I am hoping to read the Latin Bible; I think it is the Vulgate. I don't know if there is another one or not.
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby GladiusRomae » Mon Apr 07, 2003 5:33 am

Oh. <br /><br />The vulgate is sandwiched somewhat uncomfortably (from a linguistic standpoint) between classical latin (wealth of forms, constructions, syntactical eccentricities) and medieval (church) latin, which tends to be a lot looser and less demanding of specific grammatical structures, particularly the less frequently used ones. I would still reccomend wheelock's as an excellent source for grasping the basics of the language. You might then want to take a look at a book on medieval latin (which can usually be had at a borders/barnes and noble quality chain bookstore). In addition, there are several texts published which are designed to specifically prepare students for the vulgate. but at any rate, since the vulgate was written for the masses, with wheelock's and a dictionary you'll be more than prepared to tackle it. The vocabulary is actually quite repetitive, so you'll get faster as you go along and eentually may be able to just read it straight.
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Elucubrator » Sat Apr 19, 2003 4:13 pm

Daddion,<br /><br />I have not downloaded the Latin texts here to examine them yet, but I do not have a very high opinion of Wheelock's Latin. See my "Rant against Wheelock" post for details.
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Archais » Sat Apr 26, 2003 6:14 am

Salve Daddion.<br /><br />I have read a great deal of the Vulgate which I got from amazon. I actualy print up and make books (using illuminatoin techinques scribal calligraphy) and got the bulk of my text from a volume called "Biblia Sacra Vulgata" which is a collusion of variant versions of the Vulgate. Reading the medaeval bible in latin is an experience like few others and is especialy valuable for those interested in ecclesiastic history or religous studies. The style of latin is that of "vulgar" or "common" latin and it is not terribly medaeval in its grammar but more "late roman." This simply means that the style you would need to learn for this Bible is only a hop skip and jump away from what you learn in any standard classical latin grammar. As a matter of fact Wheelock has in print a book called "Wheelock Latin Reader" which has a section on "vulgar latin" or latin from what was known as the patristic christian period of latin litterature. And it gives readings out of the book of Job and some in the New Testament. <br /><br />To give you a very superficial idea of the differences betwenn common vulgar latin of this period and of the classical era would be frequent use of words like "quod" and "quia" to introduce a subjunctive verbin indirect statemens like the following:<br /><br />"dixitque Deus, fiat lux et facta est lux et vidit Deus lucem QUOD esset bona et divisit lucem ac tenebras"<br />(and God said, "let there be light" and there was light and God saw THAT the light was good and divided the light from the darkness)<br /><br />In this sentence the word Quod is being used in exactly the same why we use "that" in english translation. This is extremely frequient not only in common latin of this patristic period but expecialy of the full fledged medaeval latin which comes later. Classical latin would have used an accusitive plus infinitive for the above construction and the writer of the vulgate Saint Jerome "santcus hieronymos" was fully conversant and competent in classical style.<br /><br />All of this is to be found in the Wheelock Latin Reader or in a book specificly dealing with Medaeval latin. The book progresses to give readings and instructions on latin which can be described as fully "medieval" as well as the patristic genre. By this period there were some major changes in the uses of verbs and some of the points of grammar that make the language much more similar to modern romance tongues like italian and spanish. We start seeing what is called "analytical verbs" an example of which would be to say "manens eram" for (i was waiting) rather than the usual "manebam."<br /><br />I have to say that i have been very pleased and learned a tremendous amount from the Wheelock series of books, but they are by far not he only grammars I use and i dont think they should be rejected wholesale for minor shortcomings. It is my standard practice to draw from as many books as possible while choosing the best book as a "primary source." The wheelock grammar cost only around 14 bucks last time i checked. I do recomend it fully and its sequel the Wheelock Latin Reader.
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Hamilton » Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:13 am

Hi,<br /><br />I have Wheelock's Latin, have Dale Grote's companion to Wheelock on order and also have Henle, SJ Latin -- both the Grammar and Henle Latin 1.<br /><br />I am curious as to other's opinion on Henle -- I hear very good things about it from Home Schoolers, and the Grammar is certainly first rate.
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Episcopus » Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:51 pm

Yes, I found myself saying "How can I learn Latin for free? Is this real? Can these old texts teach properly?" <br /><br />Some like Wheelock, others like D'Ooge; some hate wheelock, others hate D'Ooge. It depends which appoints your bishop ;) <br /><br />But Latin For Beginners is my personal choice. Actually I think it to be a wonderful credit to the author and to this site. It has clear explanations, exercises, 1/2 a key (we're working on it but it'll take you months to reach where it is anyhow) and vocabulary. I would print it out, get an exercise book and do it once a day. <br /><br />Whichever you may choose, good luck! santé!
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby MDS » Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:55 pm

How might I acquire this "1/2 a key" for Latin for Beginners that you speak of?
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Episcopus » Fri Sep 19, 2003 7:46 pm

hmm...has ingrid not put it up on textkit? A month ago I wrote a couple pages of it...in fact I have a great deal more to write. But it does exist, on my computer in fact; I just think that I am not the one to distribute - it belongs to textkit...
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby MDS » Fri Sep 19, 2003 9:57 pm

I agree that it should belong to textkit. When it becomes public I will definately be making use of it! :)
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Episcopus » Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:34 am

But, if you do have any problems in the D'Ooge exercises (which you shouldn't really - everything is explained soundly) then you can always post a topic here.
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby MDS » Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:09 pm

I will don't worry. Although as you say he gives pretty sound explanations.
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Episcopus » Sun Sep 21, 2003 2:16 pm

heh I'm just waiting for someone to come along and diss the book. Always happens, your being so polite at my shameless D'Ooge "demonstrare" is asking for it.
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby benissimus » Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:35 pm

It's hard to resist sometimes. People are naturally compelled to try to balance out pride and insult.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby tdominus » Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:37 am

What I like most about D'Ooge's book is the very frequent exercises. For someone impatient like me, it is nice to be able to focus on doing exercises rather than reading overly-verbose explanations. D'Ooge's explanations are clear and consise, and his exercises plentiful.<br />
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby ingrid70 » Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:12 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=42;start=0#6281 date=1064000769]<br />hmm...has ingrid not put it up on textkit? A month ago I wrote a couple pages of it...in fact I have a great deal more to write. But it does exist, on my computer in fact; I just think that I am not the one to distribute - it belongs to textkit...<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I'm still busy with it, I've been away from keyboard for a while for personal reasons (I do have a family, you see :). )I've got to the first part of Niobe's story, everything what comes before is ready. I'll try to speed things up so I can post the first part soon (or send it to Jeff, because the Adobe converted at work seems to dislike me).<br /><br />Ingrid
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Episcopus » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:20 pm

Is that implying that I have no family that loves me :-[ <br /><br />No no no pressure to finish it! I am always busy and tired too; obligations drain me physically so we're in the same boat (if you excuse the idiom). The only reason wherefore I said that was your saying that you were about to upload the first half of the Key.<br /><br />I have about 10 exercises to add! And when I'll have time to do those I don't know!<br /><br />I do agree about the exercises. Each reviews previous vocabulary and grammar points done recently and some from a while ago. They are very helpful in that I learn the vocabulary properly thence through my using it and grammar rules are in abundance for easy recognition thereof in the future.<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby benissimus » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:15 pm

Are you going to have someone look over the key before you submit it? If not... :)
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby ingrid70 » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:39 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=42;start=15#6487 date=1064272515]<br />Are you going to have someone look over the key before you submit it? If not... :)<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Do I hear someone volunteering here :)? I'd appreciate it if you would do it, I'm sure I've still got a lot of typos in it.<br /><br />The reason it takes longer than I thought is because I've got to do most of the Latin-English exercises. <br /><br />Ingrid<br /><br />PS: episcopus, I wasn;t implying anything about your family life, but things are slightly different for a mother sometimes :).
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Keesa » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:26 pm

As I remember, Wheelocks is not on Textkit because of copyright issues, right? <br /><br />Ingrid, do you need Latin-to-English exercises for the lessons around Lesson Nine/Ten, or are you so far beyond those that there's no need for them? Unfortunately, I can't help with the higher stuff yet, but what I can do, I will.
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby ingrid70 » Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:43 pm

[quote author=Keesa link=board=3;threadid=42;start=15#6543 date=1064323567]<br />Ingrid, do you need Latin-to-English exercises for the lessons around Lesson Nine/Ten, or are you so far beyond those that there's no need for them? Unfortunately, I can't help with the higher stuff yet, but what I can do, I will. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Thanks, but I've reached chapter 22 today, exercise 146.<br /><br />Ingrid
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby mariek » Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:28 pm

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=42;start=15#6449 date=1064243536]<br />I'm still busy with it[/quote]<br /><br />We appreciate all the time and effort you have put into this, but please only work on it when you have the time. We don't want this to turn out to be a "chore". :)<br /><br />
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby MDS » Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:24 am

Yes, I know Ingrid that you mentioned you didn't mind doing this but dont push yourself beyond reason. As great as Latin (and Greek) are they are just hobbies and families should always come first. When it is posted on textkit I for one will be estatic!
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Keesa » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:30 pm

And I for two will be, as well. But I think we all agree that you shouldn't rush yourself. And, should some strange event occur where I suddenly breeze through the next twelve chapters, I will definitely start helping again. :D
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Re:Can you learn from these as good as Wheelock's?

Postby Episcopus » Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:38 pm

By the by, "I'm a mother" is the best excusing retort that I have ever heard ;)
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