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Is participle used in vocative ?

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Is participle used in vocative ?

Postby Junya » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:41 pm

Hi.

I wonder if present participle (like sumens)can be used in vocative.
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Re: Is participle used in vocative ?

Postby adrianus » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:36 pm

O Oriens, splendor lucis aeternae, et sol iustitiae: veni, et illumina sedentes in tenebris et umbra mortis.

Apart from those sort of nouns/substantives, I can't find an example of a present participle as a vocative. Usually the present participle qualifies "tu" in the nominative where there is a vocative near.
Separatim tale nomen vel substantivum, participium praesens vocativo casu non invenio. Semper participium "tu" pronomini nominativo casu servit cum vocativum prope participium est.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is participle used in vocative ?

Postby Junya » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:15 pm

Apart from those sort of nouns/substantives, I can't find an example of a present participle as a vocative.


What sort ?
You mean such participles as appear as substantives in dictionaries, like oriens under orior ?
Do you say a present participle like sumens, which has no appearance as a substantive under sumo in the dictionary, would not be used in vocative ?



Usually the present participle qualifies "tu" in the nominative where there is a vocative near.


Then, is it possible that a pres. part. in voc. is attached to a hiding noun in vocative ?
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Re: Is participle used in vocative ?

Postby adrianus » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:28 pm

Yes, that's what I meant, that I can't find examples of the last sort.
Its, sic dicere volo: exempla istius generis non reperio.
Junya wrote:Then, is it possible that a pres. part. in voc. is attached to a hiding noun in vocative ?

Give a published example, Junya. Personally, I don't see why you shouldn't say, "o volantes!" (Oh, flying creatures!)
Pone exemplum proditum , Junya.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is participle used in vocative ?

Postby Junya » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:41 pm

I was seeing a CD's lyric.

Sumens illud «Ave»
Gabrielis ore,
funda nos in pace,
mutans Evæ nomen.

(Ave Maris Stella)

The one addressed is Mary the virgin.
If I take this sumens as adverbial, somehow it connects awkwardly with funda nos in pace.
So I thought this may be in vocative.
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Re: Is participle used in vocative ?

Postby adrianus » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:47 pm

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gt9BAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA843&lpg=PA843&dq=%22o+poenitens%22&source=bl&ots=O7j5W20vAy&sig=AhnrEK-OlOURYtoDvJJl64aDQok&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LklzUOuoMuWw0AWu0YAo&sqi=2&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22o%20poenitens%22&f=false

"O poenitens" you have here // hîc habes

I think that sumens is as easily nominative there: ( = "tu sumens")
Sumens illud «Ave»
Gabrielis ore,
funda nos in pace,
mutans Evæ nomen.


"sumens" and "mutans" in predicate clauses will not read so easily as "o sumens illud..." and "o mutans Evae nomen", I think.

"[By] receiving that "ave" from the mouth of Gabriel ([and so] rearranging Eva's [= Eve's] name*), make us secure in peace."

*http://www.mccaughan.org.uk/g/random/ncs-texts_2007-11.html
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
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Re: Is participle used in vocative ?

Postby Junya » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:45 am

Anyway, this sumens illud ave Gabrielis ore and funda nos in pace are united in one sentence in a chronically strange manner, so awkwardly connect to each other.
I found that even with sumens taken as vocative awkwardness doesn't disappear, as well as the bnominative sumens in adverbial (ablatival) meaning.
Maybe I should grasp the sentence more loosely as a kind of poetical grammar ?
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