I'll post my own attempt in a few days.The great Brillat-Savarin declared, "We can learn to be cooks, but we must be born knowing how to roast." I often lie awake nights worrying about whether I was born to roast. It can be total agony.
Greek Comp, Steingarten
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
Greek Comp, Steingarten
Right now I'm reading It Must've Been Something I Ate by Jeffrey Steingarten. He's a food essayist. I just read this wonderful little paragraph, and this seems like a challenge without being insurmountable:
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:55 am
hi will, i tried this:
[size=200]ὁ μέγας ἀνὴρ ἔφη,[/size] "[size=200]τὸ πέσσειν μὲν διδακτόν, ἔμφυτος δὲ ἡ τὸ ὀπτᾶν τέχνη[/size]". [size=200]πολλάκις ἀγρυπνέω θαυμάζων εἰ ταύτην τὴν τέχνην ἔχω· ὡς οδυνηρός, οἴμοι[/size]
the great (man) said, "cooking can be taught, but the skill of roasting is inborn". often i lie awake wondering if i have this skill: how agonising, oimoi.
i put cooking and roasting in as infinitives with the neuter article, because i think they're used as verbal nouns there.
i'm interested in seeing how you'll put it
cheers, chad.
[size=200]ὁ μέγας ἀνὴρ ἔφη,[/size] "[size=200]τὸ πέσσειν μὲν διδακτόν, ἔμφυτος δὲ ἡ τὸ ὀπτᾶν τέχνη[/size]". [size=200]πολλάκις ἀγρυπνέω θαυμάζων εἰ ταύτην τὴν τέχνην ἔχω· ὡς οδυνηρός, οἴμοι[/size]
the great (man) said, "cooking can be taught, but the skill of roasting is inborn". often i lie awake wondering if i have this skill: how agonising, oimoi.
i put cooking and roasting in as infinitives with the neuter article, because i think they're used as verbal nouns there.
i'm interested in seeing how you'll put it
cheers, chad.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
I have taken liberties. I aimed to get the sense more than the exact wording, since I can barely imitate Steingarten's style in English, much less Greek.
ὁ μέγας βριιατ‐σαβαριν ἔφη, "μανθάνειν μὲν οἷοί τ’ ἐσμὲν γίγνεσθαι μάγειροι, μοῖρα δ’ ἡμᾶς φῦναι ἐπισταμένους ὀπτᾶν." πολλάκις ἄυπνος κεῖμαι ἐν τῇ κλίνῃ φροντίζων πότερον μοῖρά μοι ὀπτᾶν ἢ οὐχί. ἐνίοτέ μ’ ἀνιᾷ.
ὁ μέγας βριιατ‐σαβαριν ἔφη, "μανθάνειν μὲν οἷοί τ’ ἐσμὲν γίγνεσθαι μάγειροι, μοῖρα δ’ ἡμᾶς φῦναι ἐπισταμένους ὀπτᾶν." πολλάκις ἄυπνος κεῖμαι ἐν τῇ κλίνῃ φροντίζων πότερον μοῖρά μοι ὀπτᾶν ἢ οὐχί. ἐνίοτέ μ’ ἀνιᾷ.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
With a preference for poetic vocabulary, as usual. I chose ἄυπνος to your ἀγρυπνέω (did you intend to Ionicize or did you forget to contract?).chad wrote:i'm interested in seeing how you'll put it
Also, should it not be ἡ τοῦ ὀπτᾶν τέχνη? I don't see the articular infinitive much in poetry.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
Hmm.
Chad, I think I like your "how agonizing" better than approach, now that I've thought about it a bit.
Chad, I think I like your "how agonizing" better than approach, now that I've thought about it a bit.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:55 am
hi will, excellent, i learned a lot of new words reading your translation, thanks
you're right, i didn't contract [size=200]ἀγρυπνέω[/size]...
with "the roasting skill", i read in Lampas that the particular thing in which you're skilled takes the accusative after [size=200]τέχνη[/size], so i put the verbal noun in the acc. i wasn't quite sure whether you could use the article + infinitive like that, but i gave it a go
just some questions about your translation for my own benefit:
should [size=200]ἐπισταμένους[/size] be in the infinitive? i was reading the lsj definition of [size=200]φῦναι[/size] and it looked (at a quick glance) like you follow [size=200]φῦναι[/size] with the inf., so "to be formed/disposed by nature to know to roast"?
and is [size=200]ἄυπνος[/size] (adjective) used as an adverb here?
the first bit on your quote sounds really nice, is that a common idiom?: "we are such as to learn to become"...? did you get that from a particular author?
thanks, chad.
you're right, i didn't contract [size=200]ἀγρυπνέω[/size]...
with "the roasting skill", i read in Lampas that the particular thing in which you're skilled takes the accusative after [size=200]τέχνη[/size], so i put the verbal noun in the acc. i wasn't quite sure whether you could use the article + infinitive like that, but i gave it a go
just some questions about your translation for my own benefit:
should [size=200]ἐπισταμένους[/size] be in the infinitive? i was reading the lsj definition of [size=200]φῦναι[/size] and it looked (at a quick glance) like you follow [size=200]φῦναι[/size] with the inf., so "to be formed/disposed by nature to know to roast"?
and is [size=200]ἄυπνος[/size] (adjective) used as an adverb here?
the first bit on your quote sounds really nice, is that a common idiom?: "we are such as to learn to become"...? did you get that from a particular author?
thanks, chad.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
Excellent! And it only took me a week to produce.chad wrote:hi will, excellent, i learned a lot of new words reading your translation, thanks
I was trying to emphasize the sense of "to be born knowing..." so I had the participle, argreeing with ἡμᾶς. But the infinitive construction might be better.should [size=134]ἐπισταμένους[/size] be in the infinitive? i was reading the lsj definition of [size=134]φῦναι[/size] and it looked (at a quick glance) like you follow [size=134]φῦναι[/size] with the inf., so "to be formed/disposed by nature to know to roast"?
I'd say not. It's agreeing with the subject of [size=134]κεῖμαι[/size], namely "I."and is [size=134]ἄυπνος[/size] (adjective) used as an adverb here?
I think this is one of the standard ways in Attic to express ability. Smyth has several references (the index points them all out). Section III of the LSJ article for [size=134]οἷος[/size] gives a bunch of interesting examples, too. This idiom sticks in my mind because it isn't used in Epic, yet it retains the generalizing sense of [size=134]τε[/size] that Attic otherwise lost.the first bit on your quote sounds really nice, is that a common idiom?: "we are such as to learn to become"...? did you get that from a particular author?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;