Textkit Logo

Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Here's where you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:30 pm

Agamemnon 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας

ἄστρων κάτοιδα νυκτέρων ὁμήγυριν,
καὶ τοὺς φέροντας χεῖμα καὶ θέρος βροτοῖς
λαμπροὺς δυνάστας, ἐμπρέποντας αἰθέρι
[ἀστέρας, ὅταν φθίνωσιν, ἀντολάς τε τῶν].

Looking at syntax alone, ignoring all the sorts of things that classics scholars focus on in poetry and drama, rejecting conjectural emendation and leaving the text as it stands, κάτοιδα looks like the main verb, ὁμήγυριν an object of κάτοιδα and ἄστρων νυκτέρων limit ὁμήγυριν. τοὺς φέροντας looks like a second object of κάτοιδα but ἀστέρας might be a delayed second object with several modifiers stacked in front of it.

ἀστέρας

φέροντας χεῖμα καὶ θέρος βροτοῖς
λαμπροὺς δυνάστας
ἐμπρέποντας αἰθέρι


I’m leaning toward the first suggestion that τοὺς φέροντας is a second object of κάτοιδα. At the moment, It seems to present the fewest difficulties.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby NateD26 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:32 pm

Do you mean τοὺς φέροντας is a different object, in addition to ὁμήγυριν, or an apposition it?

I'm not sure but it seems Smyth has taken τοὺς φέροντας as an apposition:

...I have learned to know well the gathering of the night's stars, those radiant
potentates conspicuous in the firmament, [5] bringers of winter and summer
to mankind [the constellations, when they rise and set].
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby pster » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:04 am

We don't know our night sky anywhere near as well as the ancients. But I don't think that all the stars bring seasonal changes, only some of them. Not the North Star, for example. So I don't like Smyth's reading. CSB's first reading seems to be on the right track, except I am at least for the moment inclined to see ἀστέρας as a third object. If all of these sets of stars were exactly the same, then strict apposition would be fine. But given that I doubt that they are, I am inclined to see the three (at least two) sets as three different (but overlapping) direct objects. This passage made me realize that the category of apposition--like countless other categories, but unlike most gramatical categories--suffers from vagueness. But to keep the discussion on track I won't elaborate.

I have a question though about commas. Suppose you don't like where the commas are. What are you to conclude?

1) The living editors didn't do a good job.
2) The editors in Byzantium didn't do a good job.
3) One doesn't question the editors in Byzantium because they knew what they were doing, so you must be at fault.

Do scholars ever argue about better placement of commas? Seems pretty clear that a few commas could make or break a reading/interpretation.
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:16 pm

pster wrote:
I have a question though about commas. Suppose you don't like where the commas are. What are you to conclude?

1) The living editors didn't do a good job.
2) The editors in Byzantium didn't do a good job.
3) One doesn't question the editors in Byzantium because they knew what they were doing, so you must be at fault.

Do scholars ever argue about better placement of commas? Seems pretty clear that a few commas could make or break a reading/interpretation.


The Greek NT (UBSGNT3/4) has a punctuation apparatus and yes scholars do argue about everything imaginable including punctuation, accents, breathings, you name it.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby NateD26 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:10 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Agamemnon 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας

ἄστρων κάτοιδα νυκτέρων ὁμήγυριν,
καὶ τοὺς φέροντας χεῖμα καὶ θέρος βροτοῖς
λαμπροὺς δυνάστας, ἐμπρέποντας αἰθέρι
[ἀστέρας, ὅταν φθίνωσιν, ἀντολάς τε τῶν].

I’m leaning toward the first suggestion that τοὺς φέροντας is a second object of κάτοιδα. At the moment, It seems to present the fewest difficulties.

If we allow the first suggestion, that ἀστέρας is the second object, with all the modifiers
stacked in the couple of lines before it, what difficulties does it present? Would the meaning
be ambiguous or nonsensical (I don't know my way around the constellations so I wouldn't know)?
Or would it be a stretch, grammar wise?
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:23 pm

NateD26 wrote:
C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Agamemnon 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας

ἄστρων κάτοιδα νυκτέρων ὁμήγυριν,
καὶ τοὺς φέροντας χεῖμα καὶ θέρος βροτοῖς
λαμπροὺς δυνάστας, ἐμπρέποντας αἰθέρι
[ἀστέρας, ὅταν φθίνωσιν, ἀντολάς τε τῶν].

I’m leaning toward the first suggestion that τοὺς φέροντας is a second object of κάτοιδα. At the moment, It seems to present the fewest difficulties.

If we allow the ???first suggestion???, that ἀστέρας is the second object, with all the modifiers
stacked in the couple of lines before it, what difficulties does it present? Would the meaning
be ambiguous or nonsensical (I don't know my way around the constellations so I wouldn't know)?
Or would it be a stretch, grammar wise?


Nate,

In regard to SYNTAX, I don't think ἀστέρας is difficult no matter how you construe a series of accusatives all referring more or less to the same referent. If a given accusative constituent is a second or third direct object or in apposition to the direct object, this doesn't cause a problem with syntax. Nor does it create problems with translation or exegesis. There is a syntax problem on live seven, at the end. The placement of τῶν is weird, truly strange.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby NateD26 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:37 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:
NateD26 wrote:
C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Agamemnon 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας

ἄστρων κάτοιδα νυκτέρων ὁμήγυριν,
καὶ τοὺς φέροντας χεῖμα καὶ θέρος βροτοῖς
λαμπροὺς δυνάστας, ἐμπρέποντας αἰθέρι
[ἀστέρας, ὅταν φθίνωσιν, ἀντολάς τε τῶν].

I’m leaning toward the first suggestion that τοὺς φέροντας is a second object of κάτοιδα. At the moment, It seems to present the fewest difficulties.

If we allow the ???first suggestion???, that ἀστέρας is the second object, with all the modifiers
stacked in the couple of lines before it, what difficulties does it present? Would the meaning
be ambiguous or nonsensical (I don't know my way around the constellations so I wouldn't know)?
Or would it be a stretch, grammar wise?


Nate,

In regard to SYNTAX, I don't think ἀστέρας is difficult no matter how you construe a series of accusatives all referring more or less to the same referent. If a given accusative constituent is a second or third direct object or in apposition to the direct object, this doesn't cause a problem with syntax. Nor does it create problems with translation or exegesis. There is a syntax problem on live seven, at the end. The placement of τῶν is weird, truly strange.

Yeah, I meant the second suggestion. My apologies.
I agree about the strange placement of τῶν. Robert Browning (1889) read it as
Stars...and the uprisings of them, as though it were αὐτῶν (or maybe it's a
demonstrative use of the article?). Smyth was more loose in his approach, with
[the constellations, when they rise and set].

Not sure how to translate it myself. Quite an odd construction.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby NateD26 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:58 pm

In light of the thread about καί and Smyth's treatment of it as sometimes adding an example or
subgroup rather than connecting two distinct head groups, perhaps it'd easier to take ἄστρων
κάτοιδα νυκτέρων ὁμήγυριν as presenting a collective general group, and then further specifying
it to those constellations that indicate the seasonal changes.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:29 pm

NateD26 wrote:In light of the thread about καί and Smyth's treatment of it as sometimes adding an example or subgroup rather than connecting two distinct head groups, perhaps it'd easier to take ἄστρων
κάτοιδα νυκτέρων ὁμήγυριν as presenting a collective general group, and then further specifying
it to those constellations that indicate the seasonal changes.


Nate,

ἄστρων κάτοιδα νυκτέρων ὁμήγυριν,
καὶ τοὺς φέροντας χεῖμα καὶ θέρος βροτοῖς
λαμπροὺς δυνάστας, ἐμπρέποντας αἰθέρι
[ἀστέρας, ὅταν φθίνωσιν, ἀντολάς τε τῶν].

The first καὶ might be adverbial, it struck me that way when I first read it.
Translation is constrained by the target language, not really a Greek issue.
The second καὶ clearly joins two constituents χεῖμα καὶ θέρος.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby NateD26 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:56 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:
NateD26 wrote:In light of the thread about καί and Smyth's treatment of it as sometimes adding an example or subgroup rather than connecting two distinct head groups, perhaps it'd easier to take ἄστρων
κάτοιδα νυκτέρων ὁμήγυριν as presenting a collective general group, and then further specifying
it to those constellations that indicate the seasonal changes.


Nate,

ἄστρων κάτοιδα νυκτέρων ὁμήγυριν,
καὶ τοὺς φέροντας χεῖμα καὶ θέρος βροτοῖς
λαμπροὺς δυνάστας, ἐμπρέποντας αἰθέρι
[ἀστέρας, ὅταν φθίνωσιν, ἀντολάς τε τῶν].

The first καὶ might be adverbial, it struck me that way when I first read it.
Translation is constrained by the target language, not really a Greek issue.
The second καὶ clearly joins two constituents χεῖμα καὶ θέρος.

Yes, that's my intent really, as relating to the first καὶ in line 5.

And I know the gathering of night's stars, specifically those that bring winter and summer to mankind...

Though perhaps in this reading, using ἀστέρας again in line 7 seems unnecessary.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby Paul Derouda » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:29 pm

I don't have much to add, it's a difficult passage and scholars have tried to emend it by conjectures like CS hinted above.
NateD26 wrote:I agree about the strange placement of τῶν. Robert Browning (1889) read it as
Stars...and the uprisings of them, as though it were αὐτῶν (or maybe it's a
demonstrative use of the article?).

In Homeric Greek this kind of (archaic) demonstrative use of the article is standard, so I think it must allowed in an later poetic text as well.
NateD26 wrote:And I know the gathering of night's stars, specifically those that bring winter and summer to mankind...

This sounds correct to me too.
Paul Derouda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 914
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby Paul Derouda » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:30 pm

ἄστρων κάτοιδα νυκτέρων ὁμήγυριν,
καὶ τοὺς φέροντας χεῖμα καὶ θέρος βροτοῖς,
λαμπροὺς δυνάστας ἐμπρέποντας αἰθέρι,
τηρῶν ὅταν φθίνωσιν, ἀντολάς τε τῶν.

This is M.L. West's idea of this passage according to his Studies in Aeschylus, ch. 7. (Though I'm not sure of his punctuation; obviously it has to be changed somehow, but he doesn't mention it - this is my attempt) He, like others, would prefer conjectural emendation and to have the problematic ἀστέρας replaced by a participle. I don't know what reading he has in his edition of the text.

What I'm wondering is how he translates this, either "I have learnt to know the assembly of the stars of night, both the winter- and the summerbringing bright potentates standing out amid the sky, as I watch their settings, and the risings of others"; or "I have learnt to know the assembly of the stars of night as I keep my eye on both the winter- and summer-bringing (etc.) whenever they set, and the risings of others".

For one, I still like "specifically those that bring winter and summer", because the first καὶ seems too strong to me compared to the second to mean "both...and" (I can't give a better explanation for this feeling). Also, I like pster's idea that not all stars bring seasonal changes.

Second, how does he extract the meaning "and the risings of others" from ἀντολάς τε τῶν?
Paul Derouda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 914
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby NateD26 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:04 am

Paul Derouda wrote:ἄστρων κάτοιδα νυκτέρων ὁμήγυριν,
καὶ τοὺς φέροντας χεῖμα καὶ θέρος βροτοῖς,
λαμπροὺς δυνάστας ἐμπρέποντας αἰθέρι,
τηρῶν ὅταν φθίνωσιν, ἀντολάς τε τῶν.

This is M.L. West's idea of this passage according to his Studies in Aeschylus, ch. 7. (Though I'm not sure of his punctuation; obviously it has to be changed somehow, but he doesn't mention it - this is my attempt) He, like others, would prefer conjectural emendation and to have the problematic ἀστέρας replaced by a participle. I don't know what reading he has in his edition of the text.

What I'm wondering is how he translates this, either "I have learnt to know the assembly of the stars of night, both the winter- and the summerbringing bright potentates standing out amid the sky, as I watch their settings, and the risings of others"; or "I have learnt to know the assembly of the stars of night as I keep my eye on both the winter- and summer-bringing (etc.) whenever they set, and the risings of others".

For one, I still like "specifically those that bring winter and summer", because the first καὶ seems too strong to me compared to the second to mean "both...and" (I can't give a better explanation for this feeling). Also, I like pster's idea that not all stars bring seasonal changes.

Second, how does he extract the meaning "and the risings of others" from ἀντολάς τε τῶν?


Interesting and rather fitting emendation. But why do you read ἀντολάς τε τῶν as "and the risings of others" and not "of them/these"? Felton notes the frequent use of the article for a pronoun (though
there are no references to back that up; see Pelie for a few).

If we do leave it as is with ἀστέρας, Headlam & Pearson read this seemingly
unnecessary repetition as a common feature of Tragedy, of laying out in simple terms
the metaphorical or ornate descriptions in the previous lines, or "producing the effect of Bathos",
as Sidwick put it.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby Paul Derouda » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:59 am

NateD26 wrote:Interesting and rather fitting emendation. But why do you read ἀντολάς τε τῶν as "and the risings of others" and not "of them/these"?

It's not my translation, but M. L. West's. Why does he translate this "and the risings of others", that was precisely my question! ;)

Now there must be a reason, West is a god, the Chuck Norris of classical scholarship...

"Martin West didn't just solve the Homeric question - he invented Homer."
(Ok, that wasn't even remotely funny)
Paul Derouda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 914
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby NateD26 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:18 pm

Paul Derouda wrote:
NateD26 wrote:Interesting and rather fitting emendation. But why do you read ἀντολάς τε τῶν as "and the risings of others" and not "of them/these"?

It's not my translation, but M. L. West's. Why does he translate this "and the risings of others", that was precisely my question! ;)

I guess it would make sense to read it this way. The guard is well-versed in the constellations
of which the setting of some and the rising of others indicate the seasonal changes.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby pster » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:58 pm

Paul Derouda wrote:Why does he translate this "and the risings of others", that was precisely my question!


Just a guess that I put 90 seconds of work into: The article, as demonstrative, according to LSJ, means "that", and consequently not "this". And so with the demonstrative, Aeschylus is saying "those". Now if that reference to "those" amounts to a purposeful non-reference to "these", that would leave us with "others". A fuller judgement would seemingly require an examination comparing and contrasting the demonstratives in play when the article was used as demonstrative. Was the article in someway an emphatic rejection of "this"? If Aeschylus wanted to say "these" would a different demonstrative have been required by the semantic/pragmatic practice in that milieu?
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby NateD26 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:20 pm

pster wrote:
Paul Derouda wrote:Why does he translate this "and the risings of others", that was precisely my question!


Just a guess that I put 90 seconds of work into: The article, as demonstrative, according to LSJ, means "that", and consequently not "this". And so with the demonstrative, Aeschylus is saying "those". Now if that reference to "those" amounts to a purposeful non-reference to "these", that would leave us with "others". A fuller judgement would seemingly require an examination comparing and contrasting the demonstratives in play when the article was used as demonstrative. Was the article in someway an emphatic rejection of "this"? If Aeschylus wanted to say "these" would a different demonstrative have been required by the semantic/pragmatic practice in that milieu?

The distinction you're trying to make between "this/these" and "that/those" is not particularly relevant
to Greek because the demonstrative pronouns were often used interchangeably.
In addition, the pronoun Felton mentioned is not demonstrative but personal. 3rd person plural αὐτῶν,
and making it refer to anything other than ἀστέρας is rather a stretch.

West used "others" for more fluid and clear translation (it's obvious that when some rise,
others set and vice versa), not because it has to correspond word-for-word to the text at hand.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby pster » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:09 pm

Ya, sure. But how do you know which pronoun Felton is referring to? I don't doubt you since you have a better handle on grammar than I do. But does he say so elsewhere? Or are we just supposed to know?

Also, Nate, I wanted to ask you which of the commentaries on archive.org you think is the best? Some of them seem rather cursory. Do you have a favorite?
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby NateD26 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:42 pm

pster wrote:Ya, sure. But how do you know which pronoun Felton is referring to? I don't doubt you since you have a better handle on grammar than I do. But does he say so elsewhere? Or are we just supposed to know?

My grammar or handle of Greek is definitely not better than yours, Paul's and the others here.
And I should have been more careful in my phrasing of the previous post. I can't know for sure
but it seems to be his meaning, at least from the context of line 7.

pster wrote:Also, Nate, I wanted to ask you which of the commentaries on archive.org you think is the best? Some of them seem rather cursory. Do you have a favorite?

I haven't checked them all, to be honest. I'm not sure I'll have the time during the next 3 weeks
to be active in the group. From the ones I did browse, Sidwick has always been stellar in my
book and Headlam & Pearson's commentary is very thorough.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby Paul Derouda » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:30 pm

pster wrote:
Paul Derouda wrote:Why does he translate this "and the risings of others", that was precisely my question!


Just a guess that I put 90 seconds of work into: The article, as demonstrative, according to LSJ, means "that", and consequently not "this". And so with the demonstrative, Aeschylus is saying "those". Now if that reference to "those" amounts to a purposeful non-reference to "these", that would leave us with "others". A fuller judgement would seemingly require an examination comparing and contrasting the demonstratives in play when the article was used as demonstrative. Was the article in someway an emphatic rejection of "this"? If Aeschylus wanted to say "these" would a different demonstrative have been required by the semantic/pragmatic practice in that milieu?

I looked up both Goodwin's and Smyth's grammar and couldn't find a justification for this translation "of others". I can just make my own guesses. If West is right, maybe the point is the choice of τῶν instead of αὐτῶν. The latter replaced the former diachronically, but this doesn't mean that at any synchronic point in time the words meant the same; there was always a contrast, while the meaning of the words slowly shifted. So, τῶν here is not just a poetic way to say αὐτῶν nor quite the same as the Homeric τῶν, but rather deliberately chosen here instead of αὐτῶν because "those" is meant, not "these".
Paul Derouda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 914
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby Paul Derouda » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:01 pm

Perhaps line 115 offers something of a parallel to West's translation of line 7

ὁ κελαινός, ὅ τ᾽ ἐξόπιν ἀργᾶς
one black, one white on the hind parts

Here as at line 7 the second element, distinct from and opposed to the first, is represented by τε and the article/demonstrative pronoun. (Why isn't δέ used here?)
Paul Derouda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 914
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby pster » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:49 pm

Paul Derouda wrote:Perhaps line 115 offers something of a parallel to West's translation of line 7

ὁ κελαινός, ὅ τ᾽ ἐξόπιν ἀργᾶς
one black, one white on the hind parts

Here as at line 7 the second element, distinct from and opposed to the first, is represented by τε and the article/demonstrative pronoun. (Why isn't δέ used here?)


I have no view on line 7, but I would say about line 115 that τε is used because the two elements are not opposed. What makes you say they are opposed? They are partners.
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby Paul Derouda » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:03 am

pster wrote:I have no view on line 7, but I would say about line 115 that τε is used because the two elements are not opposed. What makes you say they are opposed? They are partners.

They are a pair, but they are contrasted, "one is black while the other is white". Maybe opposed was too strong a word. In both cases τε + demonstrative pronoun/article indicates a change of referrent. I don't know if it's a good parallel but I was thinking so...
Paul Derouda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 914
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Aesch. Aga 4-7 κάτοιδα ... ἀστέρας syntax

Postby Paul Derouda » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:26 pm

NateD26 wrote:
Paul Derouda wrote:
NateD26 wrote:Interesting and rather fitting emendation. But why do you read ἀντολάς τε τῶν as "and the risings of others" and not "of them/these"?

It's not my translation, but M. L. West's. Why does he translate this "and the risings of others", that was precisely my question! ;)

I guess it would make sense to read it this way. The guard is well-versed in the constellations
of which the setting of some and the rising of others indicate the seasonal changes.

Not much to add - as Agamemnon is a poetic work and uses archaic language, I thought this might be relevant to the discussion as to why West translates ἀντολάς τε τῶν "and the risings of others".

Smyth §1103
In Hom. ὁ contrasts two objects, indicates a change of person, or a change of action on the part of the same person. Attic ὁ defines.
Paul Derouda
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 914
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm


Return to Learning Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AlexEmp and 38 guests