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That curve ball, QUIA

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That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Sat Jul 12, 2003 2:39 pm

I have questions about three sentences which all contain "quia".<br /><br />First of all, I notice that in English we write ".... , because ..." (i.e. the sentence contains a comma before "because") while the comma doesn't exist before "quia. There isn't much punctuation in Latin, is there ?<br /><br /><br />Sentence 1 : Puella Dianae coronam dat quia Dianam amat.[face=SPIonic][size=18=9](47I, 8 )[/face][/size]<br /><br />I'm not sure whether this sentences translates to :<br /> A girl gives a wreath to Diana because she (the girl) loves Diana.<br />or...<br /> A girl gives a wreath to diana, because Diana loves wreaths.<br /><br />The "quia Dianam amat" part seems like it's missing something ... like "Diana loves ___" or "____ loves Diana".<br /><br /><br />Sentence 2 : The girls give a wreath to Julia, because Julia loves wreaths.[face=SPIonic][size=18=9](47II, 2)[/face][/size]<br /><br />I translated this to :<br /> Puellae Juliae coronam dant quia Julia coronam amat.<br /><br />I have the feeling that one of the words after quia should go, but I'm not sure whether it is "Julia" or "coronam". I guess I just don't understand the sentence structure in Latin when they throw in the curve ball "quia".<br /><br /><br />Sentence 3 : The sailors tell the ladies a story, because the labies love stories.[face=SPIonic][size=18=9](47II, 3)[/face][/size]<br /><br />I translated this to :<br /> Nautae dominae fabulam narrant quia dominae fabulas amant.<br /><br />Is that correct ?<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Magistra » Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:28 pm

mariek:<br />Sentence 1 : Puella Dianae coronam dat quia Dianam amat.(47I, 8 )<br /><br />I'm not sure whether this sentences translates to :<br /> A girl gives a wreath to Diana because she (the girl) loves Diana.<br />or...<br /> A girl gives a wreath to diana, because Diana loves wreaths.<br /><br />The "quia Dianam amat" part seems like it's missing something ... like "Diana loves ___" or "____ loves Diana".<br /><br />Magistra:<br />Your first one is right. Amat ends in -t which represents he/she/it. Dianam ends in -am-> accusative -> direct object.<br /><br />mariek:<br />Sentence 2 : The girls give a wreath to Julia, because Julia loves wreaths.(47II, 2)<br /><br />I translated this to :<br /> Puellae Juliae coronam dant quia Julia coronam amat.<br /><br />Magistra:<br />OK except coronam; you need acc. pl. -> coronas<br /><br />mariek:<br />Sentence 3 : The sailors tell the ladies a story, because the labies love stories.(47II, 3)<br /><br />I translated this to :<br /> Nautae dominae fabulam narrant quia dominae fabulas amant.<br /><br />Magistra:<br />"Ladies" is plural so you need dominis (dat. pl.) in the first part of your sentence.<br /><br />Overall, looking good! Watch out for plurals, though.<br /><br />As far as punctuation goes, the ancients of the Classical Period pretty much didn't use any.<br /><br />This site traces the development of punctuation:<br /><br />http://medievalwriting.50megs.com/scripts/punctuation/punctuation1.htm<br /><br />Magistra
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Episcopus » Sat Jul 12, 2003 5:06 pm

heh yeah :)<br /><br />with quia, not to act as though I be an expert, but I take all nom, dat, gen, acc, abl and piece them together. Whichever one make sense. <br /><br />For example, benis. ' wrote something like<br /><br /><br />Nemo... patriam quia magna est amat, sed quia sua.<br /><br />I asked him about this. Hard. Notice he put est and amat at the end. <br /><br />B.L.D makes longer sentences in no time ! <br /><br />Nice one for going through the book!! <br /><br />mox erimus aptus dicere Latine. (hah i think!)<br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Sat Jul 12, 2003 11:28 pm

[quote author=Magistra link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1264 date=1058023732]<br />mariek:<br />Sentence 1 : Puella Dianae coronam dat quia Dianam amat.(47I, 8 )<br /><br />I'm not sure whether this sentences translates to :<br /> A girl gives a wreath to Diana because she (the girl) loves Diana.<br />or...<br /> A girl gives a wreath to diana, because Diana loves wreaths.<br /><br />The "quia Dianam amat" part seems like it's missing something ... like "Diana loves ___" or "____ loves Diana".<br /><br />Magistra:<br />Your first one is right. Amat ends in -t which represents he/she/it. Dianam ends in -am-> accusative -> direct object.<br />[/quote]<br />Well, when you put it that way it semes to make perfect sense. It just confuses me when I'm trying to piece everything together.<br /><br />How do you approach reading a sentence like this? Just read it from left to right and it all somehow comes together?<br /><br />What throws me off is reading the first part "Puella Dianae" and thinking that Dianae is a genitive singular word because of the -ae ending. Then I do a double take and realize that Dianae is actually the dative singular word in the sentence.<br />[quote author=Magistra link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1264 date=1058023732]<br />mariek:<br />Sentence 3 : The sailors tell the ladies a story, because the ladies love stories.(47II, 3)<br /><br />I translated this to :<br /> Nautae dominae fabulam narrant quia dominae fabulas amant.<br /><br />Magistra:<br />"Ladies" is plural so you need dominis (dat. pl.) in the first part of your sentence.[/quote]<br />D'oh! I got hung up on the -ae ending for the dative.[quote author=Magistra link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1264 date=1058023732]<br />As far as punctuation goes, the ancients of the Classical Period pretty much didn't use any. http://medievalwriting.50megs.com/scrip ... ation1.htm[/quote]<br />Neat website ! I love how they have example graphics of the various styles. They're beautiful but some are impossible to read.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Sat Jul 12, 2003 11:38 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1267 date=1058029562]<br />with quia, not to act as though I be an expert, but I take all nom, dat, gen, acc, abl and piece them together. Whichever one make sense.[/quote]<br />Yeah, taking all the parts and piecing them together ... that's what I try to do too, but I often get confused.<br />[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1267 date=1058029562]<br />Nemo... patriam quia magna est amat, sed quia sua.[/quote]<br />So what does this sentence mean? Is it the "est amat" that is the curve ball? Sorry, I haven't gotten that far yet.<br />[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1267 date=1058029562]<br />B.L.D makes longer sentences in no time ![/quote]<br />LONGER?? Hmm... plenty of new challenges ahead, eh? :)<br /><br />Well I hope to be able to create simple conversational sentences soon... need to work harder/faster... I'm trying to digest all this stuff as fast as I can...<br /><br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby benissimus » Sun Jul 13, 2003 2:43 am

How do you approach reading a sentence like this? Just read it from left to right and it all somehow comes together?<br /><br />My teacher always suggested finding the subject, then the verb, and finally the object. I always ignored that advice and just forced myself to read the sentence as is until I could finally understand most sentences. The method is somewhat confusing, but I think it's more rewarding and natural. I agree, datives (and ablatives) can be very troublesome. There is always a moment in my mind (even when reading that sentence) that I consider it to be a genitive before logic tells me that it's a dative. Fortunately, in third declension, the singular forms are all distinct.<br /><br />Nemo... patriam quia magna est amat, sed quia sua.<br />No one... loves (their) fatherland because it is great, but because (it is) their own.<br /><br />In my experience, all words of the the "qui/quae/quod" familiar are troublesome. Don't worry too much if they give you trouble, as long as your sentences are fairly accurate. When you're always learning new things, and making errors, it may not seem like progress. This is because you already know the things which you previously made errors on and are just moving onto more advanced errors! :D
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Sun Jul 13, 2003 7:36 am

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1287 date=1058064231]My teacher always suggested finding the subject, then the verb, and finally the object. I always ignored that advice and just forced myself to read the sentence as is until I could finally understand most sentences.[/quote]<br />Yes, I agree that your method is more natural. I'm just having difficulties rearranging all the words in my head. So for now, I'm using your teacher's method. I do my exercises on my computer because it's so much easier to rearrange words, line up my ducks, and dot my i's and cross my t's. I don't know how anyone can do this with pen and paper! I'm looking forward to the day when I can read a Latin sentence straight through from left to right and not have to think too hard to understand it.<br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Episcopus » Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:36 am

hahah mariek you are the man<br /><br />seriously don't try working too fast it'll go over your head!! <br />i do 1 exercise per night if I have one session or If I 30 mins in the day free have, another one then. <br />Especially when you get further. Onto the verbs and 9 irregular adjectives (AAH!) and is, ea, id - a lot must be remembered and then you really should concentrate on one thing per day. I remember doing the 9 rings of power in 3 days.<br /><br />what was also hard about that sentence was that 'sed quia sua' lacked a verb. but when I thought about it it made no sense to put another est in.<br /><br />It's useful to be aware of the verb you're dealing with, for example 'dare', to give, takes an indirect object i.e to/for something in stead of I ....ed something-am!<br /><br />On a computer?! I'd have a major headache! All that light and Latin non mixant ;D<br /><br />I am reading Niobe and her children ;D <br />And really I am pleased as hell with progress. I remember everything D'ooge has taught, almost out of respect. <br />I felt so confident, but then...this (ok a little Off topic!) is just a GCSE set text. GCSEs in french, german etc. are simple, grammar isn't even required to be taught! but nasty! <br />come on benis! magister!<br /><br /> at regina<br />gravi iamdudum saucia cura<br />vulnus alit venis<br />et caeco carpitur igni.<br /><br />multa viri virtus<br />animo, multusque recursat<br />gentis honos:<br />haerent infixi pectore<br />vultus verbaque,<br />nec placidam membris dat cura<br /> quietem.<br /><br />postera (Aurora)<br />Phoebea lustrabat lampade terras<br />umentemque polo dimoverat umbram,<br />cum sic … adloquitur male sana<br />unanimam sororem:<br /><br />‘Anna soror,<br />quae me suspensam insomnia terrent!<br />Quis novus hic … hospes,<br />nostris successit sedibus!<br /><br />quem sese ore ferens,<br />quam forti pectore et armis!<br /><br />credo equidem,<br />nec vana fides,<br />genus esse deorum.<br /><br />degeneres animos timor arguit:<br />heu, quibus ille iactatus fatis!<br />quae bella exhausta <br />canebat<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Magistra » Sun Jul 13, 2003 2:13 pm

Episcopus dixit:<br /><br />this (ok a little Off topic!) is just a GCSE set text. GCSEs in french, german etc. are simple, grammar isn't even required to be taught! but nasty! <br /><br />Magistra quaerit:<br />What is a GCSE set text?<br /><br />The passage you wrote sure isn't Niobe. It's the beginning of Book II of Vergil's Aeneid. It starts with the epic simile of Dido being compared to a deer.<br /><br />Magistra
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Magistra » Sun Jul 13, 2003 2:22 pm

mariek:<br />How do you approach reading a sentence like this? Just read it from left to right and it all somehow comes together?<br /><br />benissimus:<br />My teacher always suggested finding the subject, then the verb, and finally the object. I always ignored that advice and just forced myself to read the sentence as is until I could finally understand most sentences.<br /><br />Do you want to decode or read Latin?<br />Read the 1st article on this page (Fluent Latin)& decide for yourself.<br /> <br />http://www.txclassics.org/ginny_articles1.htm<br /><br />Magistra<br /><br />P.S. Since I learned by the decoding method & used it for many years, it still influences my reading, but I've broken away from it as much as possible. When I read, I do a bit of both methods.
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby ingrid70 » Sun Jul 13, 2003 2:33 pm

I try to read Latin from left to right, although I learned to do it like Benissimus too. Imagine what happens by the time you encounter subclauses: which verb belongs to which part? It's more like solving a puzzle that reading a text. Besides, the Romans could read from left to right, and they didn't even uses spaces to mark the words (although they read out loud, and rather slowly, so maybe we should too).<br /><br />You could make a list of possible endings with their functions, say:<br />(I use i: and u: for the long vowels)<br /><br />-a nom.s.<br />-a: abl.s.<br />-ae gen/dat.s./nom.plu.<br />-am acc.s.<br />-arum gen.plu.<br />-i:s dat/abl.plu.<br /><br />Now you try a sentence from left to right:<br />Nauta agricoli:s fugam nu:ntiat.<br /><br />Nauta: a sailor; nom.s., a sailor does something<br />agricoli:s: farmers dative or ablative plural, so the sailor probably does something to the farmers (I wouldn't know how the farmers could be ablative here)<br />fugam: flight; acc.s. the sailor does a flight to the farmers<br />nu:ntiat: announces (3rd person sing.). the sailor announces the flight to the farmers.<br /><br />When you encounter the next declension, you just add its endings to your list. More possibilities, more fun :).<br /><br />There is some text about reading Latin on the Perseus site, with a far more elaborate example than this, but I hope this helps.<br /><br />Vale,<br />Ingrid
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby ingrid70 » Sun Jul 13, 2003 2:36 pm

:)Of course, after a while that list of possible endings should be in your head instead of on a paper, if you want to read fluently. It's supposed to be a learning aid.<br /><br />Vale,<br />Ingrid
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Episcopus » Sun Jul 13, 2003 3:31 pm

[quote author=Magistra link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1312 date=1058105629]<br />Episcopus dixit:<br /><br />this (ok a little Off topic!) is just a GCSE set text. GCSEs in french, german etc. are simple, grammar isn't even required to be taught! but nasty! <br /><br />Magistra quaerit:<br />What is a GCSE set text?<br /><br />The passage you wrote sure isn't Niobe. It's the beginning of Book II of Vergil's Aeneid. It starts with the epic simile of Dido being compared to a deer.<br /><br />Magistra<br />[/quote]<br /><br />GCSE is a U.K qualification; this is a text that was in a previous examination paper!<br /><br />I knew it was Aeneid, I just said at the moment I am reading Niobe ;)<br /><br /><br />Yeah, one needs to stop to 'decode' Latin and begin to think in Latin, I suppose!<br /><br />if anyone learns german here, thinking in german is vital to speak even simple sentences. Word order is a beast, but thankfully becomes instinct later on.<br />It just doesn't seem to happen with Latin because of the free word order almost!
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Sun Jul 13, 2003 9:10 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1300 date=1058096181][/quote]<br /><br />i do 1 exercise per night if I have one session or If I 30 mins in the day free have, another one then.<br />I'm amused it looks like your Latin grammar has bled into your English grammar since you put the verb "have" at the end after "free". :) <br /><br />the 9 rings of power<br />Sounds like something from Lord of the Rings! LOL!<br /><br />The book has only just touched a bit on adjectives; we haven't yet dived right into the meaty parts. What are is, ea, and id?<br /><br />On a computer?! I'd have a major headache! All that light and Latin non mixant ;D <br /><br />I take it you do everything the old fashioned way? Writing with pen and paper? My hand is lazy and can't write for very long because I do most of my "writing" on the computer. I can type faster than writing.<br /><br />a GCSE set text<br />i don't know what a GCSE set text is. What is it?<br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Sun Jul 13, 2003 9:27 pm

[quote author=Magistra link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1313 date=1058106162][/quote]<br />Do you want to decode or read Latin?<br />Read the 1st article on this page (Fluent Latin)& decide for yourself.<br />http://www.txclassics.org/ginny_articles1.htm<br />Very interesting article. I'm not entirely confident that I can pull this off right from the start. I think I need to let all the declensions sink into memory first and then I'll be better prepared. I'll try to "read" Latin when I do my exercises, but I have the feeling I'll need to "decode" for a while longer. I've bookmarked the page for future reference, I think it will make more sense to me once I've gotten more of the grammar basics down.<br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Sun Jul 13, 2003 9:44 pm

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1315 date=1058106803][/quote]You could make a list of possible endings with their functions<br />Yes, I have to have my "cheat sheet" in front of me. It enumerates all the words I've learned so far and I add more to it as I progress through the book. And I also have a chart with all the possible endings, though mine is a little different from yours:<br /><br /> s pl<br />nom -a -ae<br />gen -ae -arum<br />dat -ae -is<br />acc -am -as<br />abl -a -is<br /><br />I have to visualize this in a "chart" format, it seems to stick in my mind better this way. I find it helps to have everything on this sheet, otherwise I'd spend too much time flipping back and forth through the book.<br /><br />I will try to find that text on the Perseus site.<br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Sun Jul 13, 2003 9:50 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1318 date=1058110273][/quote]GCSE is a U.K qualification; this is a text that was in a previous examination paper!<br />So... GCSE is some sort of examination that you must pass to graduate from high school or to matriculate into college?<br /><br />I'm still having trouble with the free word order in Latin. I have to get over the fact that the subject of the sentence is not necessarily at the beginning of the sentence.<br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:29 pm

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=242;start=0#1315 date=1058106803]You could make a list of possible endings with their functions, say: (I use i: and u: for the long vowels) [/quote]<br /><br />Ingrid, I just wanted to let you know that I've started to adopt your colon (:) notation to note the long vowels when I'm typing up my Latin exercises. It really helps me try to remember where the long vowels are. :)<br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Episcopus » Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:19 pm

SOME ONE ! END THIS MADNESS! GIVE US MACRONS! <br /><br />GCSE are huge exams done at 16 years old.<br /><br />I stole an exercise book from my school...I'll be needing a new one soon actually!<br /><br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 15, 2003 3:38 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=242;start=15#1370 date=1058221199]GCSE are huge exams done at 16 years old.<br /><br />I stole an exercise book from my school...I'll be needing a new one soon actually![/quote]<br />So I guess Latin in one of the topics you're tested on. Does that mean Latin is a required course in school?<br /><br />Don't say "stole", but rather "borrowed indefinitely". ;D Actually, possession is 90% ownership ... or something like that.
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Episcopus » Tue Jul 15, 2003 4:52 pm

Insanely, no school/college/classes are available anywhere near me. <br /><br />est nullus ludus finitimus casae meae qui Latinus habet (sue me if it's wrong i dont care practise makes perfect!)<br /><br />I follow D'Ooge and hope to take the exams in a special centre in London...<br /><br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:28 pm

I've grown accustomed to BLD's presentation style. However I stopped by one of the local Borders bookstores and noticed that they had the M&F book. So I sat down with both the M&F book and the W book ... and boy are they totally different! After browsing through Unit 1 of M&F, I realized that I did not like the W book's presentation style. But M&F really throws everything (including the kitchen sink it appears!) at you all at once. It's really overwhelming. I don't see myself doing one M&F Unit per day, more like one M&F Unit per week or two to let all that info sink in. But there is something about the M&F book that seems less um ... well, not condescending (definitely not the word I'm grasping for). The M&F book doesn't do as much hand-holding, and it seems to assume an intelligent audience who can work with all the material they present. I kinda like that approach. The M&F book also looks like it makes an excellent reference book.<br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Episcopus » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:34 pm

The first 30 pages of Dr. D'Ooge's book cover relatively little in terms of material, but were necessary in the sense that they convinced me that Latin could make sense and Basic Principles really help. It wasn't as insanely difficult and/or stupid Like the Camridge textbooks which cover almost no grammar in 200 pages! They merely throw inaccurate vocabulary in the reader's face. Now that it begins to come thick and fast the Latin is not as insanely difficult as I would have thought at the outset. This is due to D'Ooge's unique clever approach and I believe it will pay off. To one book only am I faithful ;D
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:12 pm

I haven't seen the Cambridge textbook, but I did see one Cambridge book at the store which was a "level 3" book. It didn't really look like a book for teaching the Latin language. It seemed to focus more on reading excerpts of Latin literature plus a bit of vocabulary. <br /><br />I'm on page 33 of BLD, and I can feel it's starting to get more meaty. It's very exciting beacuse I'm working through the exercise (#77) and if I stare at the Latin sentences a little bit and rearrange what the English translated sentince might be, I actually get the gist of what it means! I can't get it on first try, I often come up with a sentence, then look at it again realizing that something is "funny". I did that with the question "Amantne oppidani Sextum?". At first I thought it was "Does Sextum love the townspeople?". Then I realized that the verb was Plural, so that certainly wasn't it. Then I tried again and got "Does the townspeople love Sextum?".<br /><br />It seems like we're the only two people who are working through BLD's book? We should try to proselytize some of the other Latin newbies... ;D<br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Milito » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:33 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=242;start=15#1401 date=1058293692]<br />The M&F book also looks like it makes an excellent reference book.<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />That's exactly what I use it for!<br /><br />I did get the first volume of the Cambridge Latin course at one time, and found that it presented only partial paradigmns via dialogs, which brought back hideous memories of elementary school French...... I much prefer the 'memorize the forms and then use 'em' approach, but I've also been called kinda odd because of that.....................<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Wed Jul 16, 2003 6:35 pm

I'm with you. I prefer the "show me the rules, then practice it" approach. I have a harder time grasping concepts when they use the "show me partial usage, then explain the rules later" approach.
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Episcopus » Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:02 pm

The first key you should be looking for, O mariek, is the cases. oppidani is nom plu. <br />and more importantly Sextum is acc. sing. of Sextus<br /><br /><br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:29 pm

Unfortunately I haven't gotten to the point where it becomes "instinctive" and I'll just "know" where all the pieces fall without having to think too hard. But practice makes perfect, and that's what I'm gonna do!
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Episcopus » Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:33 pm

instinct! I wish!<br /><br />D'Ooge says that the key is the ending of words. Without those, Latin is "impossible". <br /><br />in a few pages I go onto 3rd declension!
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Milito » Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:01 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=242;start=15#1513 date=1058466819]<br />instinct! I wish!<br /><br />D'Ooge says that the key is the ending of words. Without those, Latin is "impossible". <br /><br />in a few pages I go onto 3rd declension! <br />[/quote]<br /><br />It does become instinct after a bit! Really! You get used to seeing words, and thus don't really think about what declension they are - which is a good thing, when you get into the 3rd declension!<br /><br />The 3rd declension is kinda different from the 1st and 2nd, and I strongly recommend drilling the living daylights out of the endings on that one. But after you get it, the number of words you're able to deal with positively explodes. <br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:04 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=242;start=15#1556 date=1058536877]<br />The 3rd declension is kinda different from the 1st and 2nd, and I strongly recommend drilling the living daylights out of the endings on that one. But after you get it, the number of words you're able to deal with positively explodes.[/quote]<br /><br />So that means the majority of the Latin nouns fall under the 3rd declension?<br /><br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby benissimus » Fri Jul 18, 2003 9:51 pm

I'm with Milito... 3rd declension is a pain, and it brings up other problems with adjectives and gender. I would conjecture that 3rd declension holds about 50% more words than 1st or 2nd.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Milito » Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:03 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=242;start=30#1579 date=1058555082]<br /><br />So that means the majority of the Latin nouns fall under the 3rd declension?<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />...... yup.<br /><br />I can't tell you what it is by percentage, but I'm sure that must be available somewhere from the really statistically-minded.....<br /><br />And actually, they break down into sub-categories, too. They all have the same endings, pretty much (with a few exceptions that use '-i' where the others use '-e', but those are easy to sort out, due to the over-abundance of '-i-' elsewhere in the words........) You have the ones that end in '-or', the ones that end it '-tas', the ones that end in a consonant + '-s', and so on. All this does is give you a bit of a heads-up toward what the noun stem will be. When you sit back and look at it, it's still very well-ordered and logical, as though part of a language developed by engineers, rather than sort of growing over time. <br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Episcopus » Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:08 pm

Qué?! The 3rd dec. has about 50 sub-declensions!! <br /><br />For me, 1st and second sound so natural, bar 'puer' and the like; but this is taking the bishop.
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby ingrid70 » Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:12 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=242;start=30#1734 date=1058810910]<br />Qué?! The 3rd dec. has about 50 sub-declensions!! <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />That's the way it is thought in BLD: liquid stems, mute stems, etc. The endings are the same. <br />The variation comes with i-stems and mixed stems, and there are a lot of sometimes (this word has mostly -i but sometimes -e in the ablative...I've always had that nagging suspicion that the Romans weren't to sure about those endings themselves :D. )<br /><br />So basically there are just 3 variations, not too many to learn, I should think :).<br /><br />Ingrid
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:59 am

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=242;start=30#1728 date=1058803391]When you sit back and look at it, it's still very well-ordered and logical, as though part of a language developed by engineers, rather than sort of growing over time. [/quote]<br />If it's logical, then there's hope for me to learn it. At least it'll make more sense than English! :) I really believe that English has a lot of curve balls that makes it difficult for people to pick up as a second language.<br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:05 am

Here's a thought. :o <br /><br />Since some nouns look like they belong to one declension when in actually they're actually another declension ... why don't the Latin dictionaries include info like what declension a noun is. Maybe a code like 1D, 2D, 3D, 4D and 5D. They can include this after their abreviation for gender. For example:<br /><br />fabula, -ae n 1d<br />frumentum, -ae n, 2d<br /><br />Something like this would really help us out.<br /><br />I haven't learned verbs yet, but I'm sure this can be applied to verbs too. Maybe 1C, 2C, 3C, and 4C to denote the verb conjugations.
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Milito » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:00 pm

Actually, telling you what declension or conjugation a noun or verb follows is extra information. By telling you (for nouns) the nominative singular and genitive singular, you ****know**** what declension it is. In fact, the only reason you need to know the nominative singular at all is that it is often a bit different from the rest of the declension. Similarly, the 4 principle parts of the verbs tell you what conjugations they are.<br /><br />Nouns -<br /><br />IF the Gen Sing ends in 'ae', it must be a first declension noun.<br />IF the Gen Sing ends in 'i', it must be a second declension noun.<br />IF the Gen Sing ends in 'is', it must be a third declension noun.<br />IF the Gen Sing ends in 'us', it must be a fourth declension noun.<br />IF the Gen Sing ends in 'ei' (or just 'i', but the Nom Sing ends in 'es') it must be a fifth declension noun.<br /><br />That's all there is to it.<br /><br />Verbs - <br /><br />IF the first person singular (1st Principle Part - 1PP) ends in '-o', and the present active infinitive (2nd Principle Part) ends in '-are', it must be a 1st conjugation. <br />IF the 1PP ends in '-eo' (a long e) and the 2PP ends in '-ere' (a long e), it must be a 2nd conjugation.<br />IF the 1PP ends in '-o' or '-io' and the 2PP ends in '-ere' (a short e), it must be a 3rd conjugation.<br />IF the 1PP ends in '-io' and the 2PP ends in '-ire', it must be a 4th conjugation.<br /><br />That's all there is to it again.....<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:05 pm

<br />Thank you so much! Thanks for explaining it all like that, it makes it so much easier to understand. I've filed this away in my "grammar" notes, along with Beniss' pronunciation guide. The verbs look pretty easy to figure out now that you've laid it out that way. I think the nouns will be a bit tricky since you still have to figure out what the genitive singular is, because the dictionary only gives you the NOM singular and NOM plural for the nouns. Perhaps it'll get easier for me once I learn and get a handle on all 5 noun declensions. I'm still stuck on -us and -um 2nd declension nouns.<br /><br />
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Postby Milito » Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:33 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=242;start=30#1812 date=1058900730]<br /><br />I think the nouns will be a bit tricky since you still have to figure out what the genitive singular is, because the dictionary only gives you the NOM singular and NOM plural for the nouns. <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />NO! The dictionary actually gives you the Nom Singular and the GEN Singulary for all nouns, because the Gen Sing is what you use to figure out how the rest of the noun is supposed to look. It just so happens that the Nom Plural and the Gen Singular of 1st declension and 2nd declension (Masculine) nouns are identical! So you're actually home free! (Assuming you know the paradigms........)<br /><br />Kilmeny
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