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Help Me Translate ? ?

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Help Me Translate ? ?

Postby Visigoth » Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:25 am

I am trying to help a friend translate some latin phrases in a theological treatise by Theodore Beza. I am just a beginner though so my attempts are deplorable. Any help would be most appreciated.

My attempt is in parenthesis. Please guide me as to where I am incorrect.


Summa totis Christianismi, sive descriptio el distributio causarum salutis electorum, et exitti reproborum, ex sacris literis collecta.

Deus cuius viae impervestigables (The God who is the way of “unknown word” [impervestigables])

Propositum eius aetrnum et immutabile, omnes causas ordine quoque antegrediens, quo in semetipso decrevit certos homies ad suam ipsius gloriam

Eligere in Christo servandos (Required to be Elect in Christ)

Creatio hominus in recto statu, sed mutabili (Man was created upright yet mutable)

Reiicere, sua ipsorum culpa damnados (Damnation is their own fault)

Corruptio hominus spotanea et contigens (Fallen man is alone in his dependancy?)

Amor gratuitus Dei erga corruptos quidem in seipsis, sed in Christo gratis destinatos electioni et saluti.

Vocatio Efficax (effectual calling?)

Emollitio sive conversio ex mera grati (? of ? out of pure gratitude.)

Fides (faith)

Iustificatio ex imputatione, et sanctificatio inchoate (Justification out of imputation and sanctification inchoate?)

Odium Dei iustum erga corruptos in seipsis, ex peccati per Adamum propagatione.

Nulla vocatio (No real calling?)

Vocatio inefficax (Ineffectual call?)

Induratio spontanea (hard alone)

Ignoratio Evnageli (Ignorance of the Gospel?)

Contemptus oblati Evangeli (Contempt for the Sacrafice of the Gospel?)

Iniustitia et pollution (injustice and waste)

Iudicium Dei de utrisque (Judgement God concerning/about each/both?)

Glorificatio iustificatorum in Christo (Glorified and Justified in Christ)

Damnatio iusta peccatorum (Damnation is the justice for sin)

Iustitia Dei (The Justification of God)

Vita aeterna coronatis etiam in membris Christi, obedientian erius ipsis imputatam gratis.

Mortis aeternae iusta poena peccatores mulctantis (Eternal death is a just penalty for sin ??)

Gloria Dei ex aeterno erius decreto, summe misericordis, et summe severi.
(Glory of God from eternal decree highest pity and highest severi??)
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Postby Visigoth » Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:47 pm

Is my post too long ? ? I hope I did not violate the board rules. . .
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Postby benissimus » Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:45 pm

You'll know it's too long if no one replies to it after a long time ;) I might give it a try later.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Postby Ulpianus » Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:34 pm

I'll have a go at a few. There seems to be some (to me) rather odd Latin, or quite a lot of spelling errors, and probably both.

Summa totis Christianismi, sive descriptio [v]el distributio causarum salutis electorum, et exitti [exitii?] reproborum, ex sacris literis collecta.


The summation of all Christianity [?], whether it be descriptive narrative or explanation of the reasons for the salvation of those who are chosen, and the destruction of those who are rejected, is to be gathered from holy writ.

Deus cuius viae impervestigab[i]les (The God who is the way of “unknown word” [impervestigables])


God whose ways are untraceable.

Propositum eius aet[e]rnum et immutabile, omnes causas ordine quoque antegrediens, quo in semetipso decrevit certos homi[n]es ad suam ipsius gloriam


His determination -- eternal and unchanging, and also preceding all causes in rank [?] -- by which he marked out in himself certain men for his own glory.

Induratio spontanea (hard alone)


Wilful stubornness [?]

Damnatio iusta peccatorum (Damnation is the justice for sin)


The just condemnation of sins.

Glorificatio iustificatorum in Christo (Glorified and Justified in Christ)


The glorification of the justified in Christ.
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Postby Visigoth » Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:01 pm

Thanks for your help. The original is a facsimile we are typing into word. The orthography and the copy are both hard to read. I am sure I have typos.
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Postby Ulpianus » Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:34 pm

OK. One word that's bugging me is "erius" in your antepenultimate and final sentences. You might like to check that (or anyone with bright ideas might like to chime in and help with it: perhaps its some piece of theological Latin ...) Could it be "eius"? One would then translate your last sentence God's glory [springing] from his eternal judgment, absolutely compassionate, yet absolutely strict.
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Postby Visigoth » Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:14 pm

Paucis verbis rem divinam facito



pauc.is N 2 1 DAT P M
pauc.is N 2 1 ABL P M
paucus, pauci N M
only a small/an indefinite number of people (pl.), few; a few; a select few;
pauc.is N 2 2 DAT P N
pauc.is N 2 2 ABL P N
paucum, pauci N N
only a small/an indefinite number of/few things (pl.), a few words/points;
pauc.is ADJ 1 1 DAT P X POS
pauc.is ADJ 1 1 ABL P X POS
paucus, pauca -um, paucior -or -us, paucissimus -a -um ADJ
little, small in quanity/extent; few (usu. pl.); just a few; small number of;
*
verb.is N 2 2 DAT P N
verb.is N 2 2 ABL P N
verbum, verbi N N
word; proverb; verba dare alicui => to cheat, to deceive someone;
*
r.em N 5 1 ACC S F
res, rei N F
thing; event, business; fact; cause; property; (res familiaris => property);

divin.am ADJ 1 1 ACC S F POS
divinus, divina -um, divinior -or -us, divinissimus -a -um ADJ
divine, of a deity/god, godlike; sacred; divinely inspired, prophetic; natural

fac.ito V 3 1 FUT ACTIVE IMP 2 S
fac.ito V 3 1 FUT ACTIVE IMP 3 S
facio, facere, feci, factus V
do, make; create; acquire; cause, bring about, fashion; compose; accomplish;

Translation
The Godly will accomplish much with few words ? ? ?
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Postby Ulpianus » Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:28 am

Paucis verbis rem divinam facito

... [many dictionary entries]

Translation
The Godly will accomplish much with few words ? ? ?


Let's take it in stages.

(1) The verb is "facito". Your dictionary entries show that it is either the second or third person future imperative of "facio": a common word with many different shades of meaning (OLD lists 30 different meanings), but basically "do" is usually a good starting point, though one often has to move to a more specific English verb once one knows what sort of "doing" is involved. So we have something along the lines of "you (singular) shall do" ("thou shalt ...") or "let him do". (One might quibble with the "future", but for present purposes it will do.)

(2) There are two nouns here: "verbis" and "rem". Check the endings. "Verbis" is either a dative or an ablative plural of the 3rd declension neuter verbum (word). Rem is the accusative singular of the 5th declension "res" (a paradigm example of this rare declension, and a very common word: "thing").

(3) We then have two other words to account for: "paucis" which must be a dative or ablative plural of paucus -a -um (a little a few) either in the masculine or the neuter. We only have one (neuter) noun it could go with, namely "verbis". So we have "a few words" in either the dative or the ablative. I would guess ablative "with/in (a) few words" -- a common expression. You got this right.

(4) This leaves divinam. It is evidently a feminine adjective (divina), which fits with res (a feminine noun), and is in the same case (the accusative). So we have a or the "divine thing". This is accusative and therefore probably the object of the verb: this is what is to be done.

(5) So if we put it together we have "you shall do a (or the) divine thing with (a) few words", which is puzzling.

(6) In fact, "res divina" (the nominative form of what we have in the accusative) is a stock phrase meaning "ritual" (you might need a big dictionary to ascertain that).

(7) So we can try again. Perhaps "Perform the ritual with few words". The "to" form of the imperative (sometimes described as future) is solemn and legalistic. So perhaps we would translate "Thou shalt perform the ritual with few words" This is as far as I could get without context, and the context might lead me to reconsider the translation. It's hard to know if you are right about something as odd and short as this without some context.

I'm not surprised you are having trouble, because these short sentences pulled out of context are pretty hard, and the subject-matter is not exactly mainstream, and I admire you for trying. But I think there may be a problem with your basic approach. You are going wrong because although you are pulling out all the possible meanings, you are not piecing them together, and you are guessing at the meaning based on the meaning of the words without working the grammar through -- though the very helpful dictionary entries you are turning up should help you with it. In your translation:

(1) You have treated "divinam" (singular feminine accusative adjective) as a plural nominative noun (which would, unless one meant "godly women" also be masculine). (Adjectives as substantives are not uncommon, but "godly" would probably be "pius": divinus means divine of godlike, which is not at all what godly means.)

(2) You have treated an imperative as a simple future -- and for that matter made it plural.

(3) You have inserted the word "much" which is not in the sentence, nor in any of the dictionary entries.

I've tried to set out above the general pattern I would follow in putting something like this together. The basic steps are: find the verb; group nouns and adjectives and work out their case; and then try to put it together, starting with an over-literal translation and working towards something that seems to make sense. I hope I don't sound too harsh; I don't mean to. You're starting off the right way by checking things up in the dictionary and so forth, but you need to concentrate more on the grammar and less on the root meaning of words, or you will tend to produce a jumble of similar ideas in quite a different order.
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Postby Visigoth » Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:57 am

You are not too harsh at all. I need to learn. Do not go easy on me.

This is very cool . . .

Thanks for the tutorial.
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