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More composition fun

Postby auctor » Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:09 am

It has occurred to me for a while now that Sir Winston Churchill was one of the better public speakers of recent years. Let's try to put into Greek some of his well-known comments.
Something topical to start with a sentence from My Early Life...

Mr Gladstone read Homer for fun, which I thought served him right.

Of course that could be ambiguous as it stands but I think WC's intentions are clear.
Use [face=SPIonic]o( h(gemw/n[/face] for Mr Gladstone unless you can think of something more apposite.

Have fun,
Paul
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Postby Bert » Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:36 am

Well, I'll try.

[face=SPIonic]o( h(gemw/n a)negi/nwske ta\j grafa/j (Omeroj e)/xein to/n kalo/n kairo/n[/face]

(I just transliterated Homer.)
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Postby Bert » Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:56 am

Oops, I just realized I only did half the sentence :oops: . I'll have to think about the second half for a bit.
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Postby chad » Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:40 am

i find this sentence really hard. i put

[face=SPIonic]ta\ tou~ 9Omh/rou e1mele proqumo/tata o9 h(gemw&n, a# prou!rgou e0no/misa[/face]

but i think the bit after the comma needs to be an adverbial clause, instead of what i put, because it's the "reading" of homer's works, not the works themselves, which "served him right"... but a [face=SPIonic]w#ste[/face] clause, expressing a result, doesn't quite seem right?!?

i was also thinking of adding [face=SPIonic]au0tw~|[/face] before the final word, but i thought the ambiguity created by leaving it out might bring out churchill's ambiguity a bit... once again tho i think was unsuccessful :) :)
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Postby auctor » Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:39 pm

Here's my attempt...

[face=SPIonic]
h(dewj men touj tou (Omhrou logouj o( h(gemwn a)negignwsken - e)nomicon d' au)touj a)llhloij sumpasxein
[/face]


Gladly the leader read Homer's stories - I thought they suffered/sympathised with each other

The second half is acc + inf and retains at least some of WC's ambiguous humour, I hope :lol:

I've just seen a preview of this and the words with leading vowels and breathings are not spaced as I'd have expected! Any reason for this?

Paul
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Postby annis » Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:39 pm

Hmmm. I think I'll follow chad on the "reading Homer" construction.

In any case:

[face=spionic]teryo/menoj o( h(gemw\n a)negi/gnwske ta\ tou= (Omh/rou, o(/, oi)=mai, a)/cio/n e)sti[/face].

I have tried to capture the "served him right" ambiguity in [face=spionic]a)/cion[/face]. I'm not sure that's quite right, though.
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Postby auctor » Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:07 pm

Yes I like the [face=SPIonic]ta tou (Omhrou[/face] construction, much neater than my rambling 4 words. But I'm afraid I don't quite follow your second half...
assuming ho is a relative pronoun [n nom sing], what is the antecedent?
Ah! Does it (or better still, can it) refer to whole of the previous phrase? If so putting it in the genitive, which "worthy of" governs, you have "he is worthy of that".
Are you giving Gladstone more of a pat on the back than WC was though?
It is a more complex sentence than I first realised, I must admit.

Paul
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Postby annis » Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:39 pm

auctor wrote:Ah! Does it (or better still, can it) refer to whole of the previous phrase?


Correct. Well, I hope correct. Other neuter pronouns can refer to phrases, so I trust the realtive can, too. I'll have to check that this evening.

Are you giving Gladstone more of a pat on the back than WC was though?


I was aiming for for the sense of suitable or due. [face=spionic]di/kaion[/face] might have been a better choice.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Postby Bert » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:12 am

I am kind of glad that I failed to see the whole sentence. I probably would not even have attempted. I had to be creative just to do the first half, for instance, I didn't know how to write 'fun' so I wrote 'to have a good time'.
Are there any glaring deficiencies in my feeble attempt? (other than the declension of Homer.)
It may be of more benefit to me and other if corrections are made.
Thank you.
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Postby chad » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:26 am

hi bert, i didn't know how to right "for fun" either, so i thought to use either the adverb (as i did) or the future participle (as will did)... did you find a case where your way of putting it was used? it was definitely a good idea :)

also i read in a book called "greek phrases" or something that you use the verb

[face=SPIonic]me/lw[/face] for silent reading
[face=SPIonic]a)nagignw/skw[/face] for reading out loud (which is what the greeks used to do, but gladstone would have prob. read silently)

the only other thing is that, with things like "the works of homer", the greeks usually just said "the of homer", because they all knew what the noun was :)... and so it's important to put in the genitive def. article i think :)
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Postby Bert » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:46 am

Thanks Chad. I knew that the infinitive can be used in purpose clauses and it was the only way I could think of writing this.

I do not have an English to Greek dictionary other than what is in the back of Pharr's grammar. I would think one is almost indispensable for composition.

I did not know that [face=SPIonic]mel/w [/face]can mean to read in addition to, to be a care
Thanks again
Last edited by Bert on Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby annis » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:49 am

Bert wrote:I am kind of glad that I failed to see the whole sentence. I probably would not even have attempted. I had to be creative just to do the first half, for instance, I didn't know how to write 'fun' so I wrote 'to have a good time'.


I'm not sure that calque works in Greek. (calque = a literal translation of an idiom; I imagine the phrase "a piece of cake" in Dutch means only cake, not that something was simple.) And if it does work, I have suspicions about [face=spionic]kairo/j[/face] which has a strong implication of not just time in general, but one particular or appropriate time, such as in the phrase "in the fullness of time."

Are there any glaring deficiencies in my feeble attempt? (other than the declension of Homer.)


In the sentence "I read to enjoy (myself)" the last bit "to enjoy myself" is a purpose clause. In my attempt I used a future participle to represent this (see Iliad A.12-13). You used an infinitive, following the English model, but this isn't the way to do that in Greek.

In addition to the future participle, purpose clauses are introduced with one of [face=spionic]i(/na, o(/pwj, w(j[/face], (in Homer, also [face=spionic]o)/fra[/face]) and take the subjunctive after a primary main clause tense (present, future, present perfect) and after a secondary main verb tense (aorist, imperfect, past perfect) the optative is usual, but the subjuctive occurs (usually called "vivid").

So:

[face=spionic]a)nagignw/skw i(/na te/rpwmai[/face] I read in order to enjoy myself.

[face=spionic]a)negi/gnwskon i(/na terpoi/mhn[/face] I was reading in order to enjoy myself.

(These are called "final clauses" in some grammars.)
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby annis » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:53 am

Bert wrote:I do not have an English to Greek dictionary other than what is in the back of Pharr's grammar. I would think one is almost indispensable for composition.


Yes. The best: http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/efts/Woodhouse/.

Routledge reprints this, and Amazon even managed to find me a copy after quite an extended search.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby Bert » Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:17 am

annis wrote: I'm not sure that calque works in Greek. (calque = a literal translation of an idiom; I imagine the phrase "a piece of cake" in Dutch means only cake, not that something was simple.)
You are right! :D
annis wrote:And if it does work, I have suspicions about [face=spionic]kairo/j[/face] which has a strong implication of not just time in general, but one particular or appropriate time, such as in the phrase "in the fullness of time."

I was not very confident about this either but I thought it might fit better than [face=SPIonic]xro/noj[/face]

annis wrote:In the sentence "I read to enjoy (myself)" the last bit "to enjoy myself" is a purpose clause. In my attempt I used a future participle to represent this (see Iliad A.12-13).
I remember now.
annis wrote:You used an infinitive, following the English model, but this isn't the way to do that in Greek.

According to Daniel B. Wallace "The infinitive is used to indicate the purpose or goal of the action or state of its controlling verb.....This is one of the most common uses of the infinitive" (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics page 590) This is a grammar specifically for New Testament Greek, maybe in that era the use of the infinitive had changed?

Thanks for the help. It was a learning experience.
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Postby annis » Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:44 am

Bert wrote:This is a grammar specifically for New Testament Greek, maybe in that era the use of the infinitive had changed?


I seem to recall reading somewhere that an elarged role for the infinitive is one of the most characteristic changes in the Koine.

Smyth lists all possible ways to phrase a purpose clause - he emphasizes "in Attic" - in section 2206. The infintive occurs, pointing to section 2008 and 2009, where a very small subset of verbs take such a construction (give, choose, take, receive). And then he lists a few articular infinitive forms, omitting entirely [face=spionic]ei)j to\ ...[/face] which I know for a fact is a Koine purpose form.

Perhaps I should get myself a real Koine grammar...
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby annis » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:53 pm

The Nunn here (Short Syntax of NT Greek), page 110 (PDF page 123) has a section on Koine purpose clauses. [face=spionic]i(/na[/face] makes an appearance, but the infinitive construction Bert used is there, too.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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