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Sentence from Ciceronis Filius

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Sentence from Ciceronis Filius

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:06 am

Salvete!

I have a small question. In Paoli's Ciceronis Filius there is the following sentence:
Haec lustratio dicebatur quod verbum idem significat quod purificatio.

I guess this may be loosely translated like this: This was called lustratio, which word means the same (thing) as purificatio.
I'm wondering about the second quod because I would have expected quam instead.
I guess that the second quod is being used in order to avoid a repetition of significat (thus refering back to the neuter idem, like: ...which word meant the same (thing) that purificatio [meant]. Is that the reason?
And would it be okay to say instead: ...quod verbum idem significat quam purificatio. What about idem significat ut purificatio?

Thank you for your help,

Carolus Raeticus
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Re: Sentence from Ciceronis Filius

Postby adrianus » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:12 pm

Illis omnibus licet, ut videtur, nisi alius aliter scit.
All are OK, it seems, unless another knows otherwise.
L&S http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Didem wrote:Idem, eadem, idem...2. As a word of comparison, with et, ac, que, ut, qui (quae, quod), quam, quasi, cum, or (mostly poet.) with the dat., the same as, identical with, of the same meaning as, etc.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Sentence from Ciceronis Filius

Postby gerases » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:23 pm

I think yes, quod here refers to idem.

quod verbum idem significat quam purificatio.
.

... so quam wouldn't work here, because what would quam refer to? Then it would have to be something like:

quod verbum eandem notionem significat quam purificatio.


idem significat ut purificatio


Doesn't sound wrong to me.

Hope it helps.
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Re: Sentence from Ciceronis Filius

Postby adrianus » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:30 pm

so quam wouldn't work here, because what would quam refer to?
Conjunctio illîc est "quam", ut sequentia "et, ac, ut, quasi" cum eiusdem pronomine.
Quam would be a conjunction there, like "et, ac, ut, quasi" with idem.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Sentence from Ciceronis Filius

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:40 pm

Salvete!

Thank you for your help.

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Re: Sentence from Ciceronis Filius

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:59 pm

Salvete!

Here is another sentence from Ciceronis filius I am wondering about (from a passage about children playing):

Ficta etiam bella gerebant, acriter proeliantes. Alteri saepe latrones erant, alteri milites, magnoque clamore alius alium verberabant, dum suum quisque adversarium superare conatur.


I was at first suprised by the plural of verberabant because I had expected alius to be followed by a singular. It seems, however, that the author is refering to the entire group and therefore uses the plural. My question is: would it have been okay to use the singular instead, e.g. in order to concentrate on the indiviual participants' actions? Or is the plural the only correct form?

Valete,

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Re: Sentence from Ciceronis Filius

Postby adrianus » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:48 pm

I think it's OK there to say also "verberabat" and mean each child rather than those in each band.
Licet illîc, ut opinor, (scilicet ut "verberabat" dicetur) dum quisque puer refertur, non quaeque pars.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Sentence from Ciceronis Filius

Postby gerases » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:53 am

I don't remember the page in Adler's http://books.google.com/books/about/A_practical_grammar_of_the_Latin_languag.html?id=GJgAAAAAYAAJ, but he deals with this issue at great length in one of the chapters on agreement. It's actually, if my memory doesn't fail me, more frequent to see alius alium + plural of the verb. I'll keep an eye on it and post once I see the exact place.

Also, If you go to http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/bennett.html and search for alius alium, you'll see an example with plural there as well. I.e.:

3. The Latin also expresses the notion 'each other' by means of alius repeated; as,—

Gallī alius alium cohortātī sunt, the Gauls encouraged each other.


Spero hoc nuntium usui tibi futurum esse.

Vale.

EDITED:

Adler, Page 154, second half of the page:
B. Rule. - After a collective noun the predicate is either in the singular or in the plural:
...
The pronouns uterque, quisque, alter ... alterum, alius ... alium, may likewise take a plural of the verb.


But no note on the frequency of singular vs. plural that I see glancing over the pages.
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Re: Sentence from Ciceronis Filius

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:52 am

Salve!

Thanks a lot (I have to remember that Bennett-version.That electronic version makes for a quick way to check grammar).

Vale,

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