Reading Group Poll: Pharr or Minckwitz

[annis]

I've been chatting with Jeff about the possibility of running a reading group for Homeric Greek. We were actually discussing this before the slew of reading group announcements for other groups.

In any case, my first thought is that we'd just use Pharr, and I have two advanced Textkit regulars who have already expressed interest in being guides for such a group, but we also have several nice readers for Homer here, in particular the Minckwitz Odyssey 12 with notes and vocabulary. Minckwitz assumes you already know some Greek. Pharr does not.

Neither Jeff nor I are exactly sure how the group would run. Could just be a mailing list, could be something more sophisticated and webbified. Almost certainly such a group will not start until February.

But I thought I should get some feel for who'd want to be involved first.

If there are enough people interested in both I'd enjoy being involved in both if there's a reasonable schedule.

[Jeff Tirey]

Sign me up.

I'll be setting up whatever technology is chosen for running the reading group....

I have seen how some reading groups conduct their classes through email using I suppose a listserve. Has anyone had experience with this? I'm curious to know if a listserve has advantages over using a forum like this one.

To me, I would think that a forum is much easier to use.

[chad]

hi annis, i'd like to join too. what would we b doing exactly... how would it be different to say the pharr forum? cheers, chad.

[annis]

hi annis, i'd like to join too. what would we b doing exactly... how would it be different to say the pharr forum?

Structure!

The greatest difficulting in studying Greek is not the grammar or the vocabulary but the time. If you stay away too long you forget what you've learned. So the course would have a set schedule and everyone involved would be expected to post their work by the set time. Also absolute beginners will have a less public space to publicize their confusions.

In the past I've always agitated for 3 lessons a week, but I think for most of the learners here that's not reasonable. We have day jobs, walls to paint, children to herd, etc. So right now I think M/Th deadlines, two lessons a week, is the best schedule, but that's one of the things we can debate a bit more.

[annis]

hi annis,

One more thing.

I realize my account name is just my last name, but I do have my full name in my signature.

Everyone is invited to call me "Will" or "William."

[Bert]

I'd like to give it a try as well.
I am a little hesitant about the available time (kids to herd etc, )to do two lessons per week, but I can always drop out if things speed along to quickly (assuming there will be no disciplinary action against drop-outs.)
One more thing; If the majority of the participants would like to use something other than Pharr, I may have to renege, the dead-line to place orders from Santa is past.

[Skylax]

But Minckwitz is downloadable from this site, it isn't? It would be easier to me to read from this book, as Pharr don't seem to be easily available in Belgium, and maybe more enjoyable, too : I would rather read "real" Homer than Pharr's adaptations, however good it can be.

[Jeff Tirey]

If we use Minckwitz I can prepare a printer friendly file that'll put 2 pages per 8.5 by 11 page to save paper.

[annis]

But Minckwitz is downloadable from this site, it isn't?

It is. I see this more for people who already have some Greek.

It would be easier to me to read from this book, as Pharr don't seem to be easily available in Belgium, and maybe more enjoyable, too : I would rather read "real" Homer than Pharr's adaptations, however good it can be.

Pharr is not adapted, though he does produce sentences for practice. Once you get to lesson 13, it's real Homer, along with Pharr's practice translation sentences.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my first post. I don't think anyone who doesn't already know some Greek can handle M. So part of my reason for the poll was to see how people who want to start learning Greek compared to how many people want to do some more serious reading. If enough people are interested in both reading groups, I think both should happen.

[Emma_85]

I'd be interested, because my last Greek exam (Homer's Odyssey) didn't go too well , even though I had done quite a bit of revision. My main problem is that my teacher expects us to somehow just pick it up and he can't go into great detail, because due to money shortages we're now a class of twenty, and half the class isn't interested at all, as they've only chosen to do Greek as a minor subject. The few lessons we have alone we spend correcting homework and setting more homework, but there's no time to look at everyone’s work and find out what they did wrong. So I'm just always like 'ahh... now why is that wrong?' but I can't stop to find out cause otherwise I'll miss the correct translation of the next sentence .
It's a great idea, because all my books just concentrate on Attic Greek.
I'd prefer Minckwitz as we're translating the Odyssey right now.

[Paul]

Hi All,

Perhaps we should divorce Pharr and Homer. Is there any reason why we can't just work through Iliad Book 1 without regard to this particular reader? This would solve the 'Pharr's book not available' problem.

Also, I do agree that two groups might come out of this: one for beginners, another for the more advanced. But if two groups are formed, this will likely increase the work load on William and any who assist him.

Behind William's use of the word 'structure' do I detect the word 'commitment'? For this to work we need a group of people that is truly committed to the undertaking. With this in mind, maybe we should consider only one lesson per week...? Put otherwise, the less onerous the commitment is, the more likely we will all persevere.

Just a few random thoughts...

Cordially,

Paul

[annis]

Perhaps we should divorce Pharr and Homer. Is there any reason why we can't just work through Iliad Book 1 without regard to this particular reader? This would solve the 'Pharr's book not available' problem.

By raising others. I'm assuming people who choose Pharr will be mostly beginners or people with no Greek at all. Pharr is by no means perfect, but it does at least have 12 preparatory chapters introducing a bare minimum grammar needed to tackle Homer.

Also, I do agree that two groups might come out of this: one for beginners, another for the more advanced. But if two groups are formed, this will likely increase the work load on William and any who assist him.

Only a little. I've been through Pharr plenty of times myself. The beginners have by far the hardest job.

Behind William's use of the word 'structure' do I detect the word 'commitment'?

Yep. I've seen several reading groups fall to entropy.

A friend of mine once called a nice restaurant in Chicago to make dining arrangements, and asked about the dress code. "Gentlemen prefer to wear ties," was the maitre D's way of saying they cannot enforce a dress code, but that there are expectations.

If you will forgive the business-speak, the synergy is better when more people are involved, and stay involved.

For this to work we need a group of people that is truly committed to the undertaking. With this in mind, maybe we should consider only one lesson per week...? Put otherwise, the less onerous the commitment is, the more likely we will all persevere.l

Is a lesson once a week enough to retain what came before? Thrice seems too much based on past experience, but I hesitate to go lower than twice for beginners. For M. that'd be fine assuming we read at least 15 lines a week, give or take for reasonable sectioning.

[Bert]

I may have to back out.
I have been doing about one and a halve lessons per week. That includes the first lessons at about three per week.
Now I am down to less than a lesson per week.
I don't know if it is because of other time commitments or the sluggishness of my brain or both but that is about as fast I can go.
I'll just keep going at my "speed".
I am stubborn enough to finnish the book without the structure of a reading group, and at least this way I won't have the pressure of having to keep up.
I wish you all success.

[annis]

I may have to back out.
I have been doing about one and a halve lessons per week.

Would this pace seem more workable if there were regular catch-up and review weeks that went slower?

[Bert]

I may have to back out.
I have been doing about one and a halve lessons per week.

Would this pace seem more workable if there were regular catch-up and review weeks that went slower?

That definitely would make a difference!

[annis]

Would this pace seem more workable if there were regular catch-up and review weeks that went slower?

That definitely would make a difference!

Well, that's good to know.

I can see slowing down to one lesson a week further into Pharr, when you start to regularly get 15-20 lines of the Iliad in addition to exercises.

[Dionusius Philadelphus]

Schoder's Reading Course in Homeric Greek may be the best, but probably also the hardest to find.

[Bert]

Allright, I'll withdraw my withdrawal.
(I was kind of looking forward to it)

[annis]

Proposed Schedules

First, Jeff is hard at work on the mailing list software we're going to be using for the reading groups. There are still a few details to work out, but we're moving along enough that we'll be starting the reading groups the first week of February.

Some of the fine tuning needs to be worked out a bit. We'll have a few web pages about this in a few days you all can comment on.

Also, please contact me by forum PM letting me know which reading group you are interested in. The forum doesn't give me access to who voted for what.

Pharr

For the Pharr group (currently 5 interested, with an extra 3 non-textkit regulars possible) I'd like to suggest this schedule which isn't set it stone but we should decided on something much like it.

1) Two lessons a week, work due on Mon and Th.

2) Every three weeks, drop to one lesson a week with additional review (not sure what form the review will take - probably questions)

3) Schedule for next month posted enough to keep schedule available for two months into the future. This gives us a chance to slow down if neccesary, and to accomodate holidays in places I know less about, without requiring massive editing on my part.

Finally, if all the participants agree, I'll be using some of the questions and answers to refine and update the Pharr Key I've slowly writing at Aoidoi.org. I'll bring this up again on the mailing list, but feel free to contact me with questions or objections.


Minckwitz

This is for more advanced people. If there are at least 3 of us, we're on.

Schedule: once a week (Tuesday? Wednesday? I prefer the later just slightly but don't care much), 15-20 lines. We should try to break it up in reasonable ways, giving sometimes more lines, sometimes fewer, though I hope never less than 10.

Again, we'll project the schedule only 6-8 weeks into the future to allow for random acts of entropy.

[Bradley]

I would like to join the Homeric Greek forum too if it gets started. I don't have a preference for either of the texts being considered.


Bradley

[annis]

Alrighty, then.

The mailing lists exist, and will be announced later today or tomorrow (i.e., how to join, etc.)

Both Pharr and Minckwitz will start not the first, but the second week in February. The first "lesson" day for Pharr will actually be for mechanics and introductions.

First week schedule:

Pharr: Mon, February 9; Thursday, February 12th (lesson 3, since we cannot teach the script via email)
Minckwitz: Wednesday, February 11th, ll.1-15.

More later!

[eris]

Will there be a new reading group starting for summer? If so, I would be interested.

[annis]

Will there be a new reading group starting for summer? If so, I would be interested.

Unless someone else steps forward to guide such a reading group, probably not. The Pharr and Minckwitz lists are both still going on, and aren't likely to be completed for some time. There's no way I can run parallel Pharr groups.

I think we may have a Latin reading group forming in a few weeks, but that'll be for Ovid, so not a beginners' group.

But we'll certainly announce it here whenever new reading groups are forming.