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oikia vs oikos

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oikia vs oikos

Postby Bert » Sat Nov 01, 2003 1:07 am

Does anyone know the difference in meaning between [face=SPIonic]oi)ki/a[/face] and [face=SPIonic]oi)=koj [/face]? (if there even is a difference.)
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Gender

Postby Geoff » Sat Nov 01, 2003 1:32 am

Other than Gender I have no clue, but have been wondering the same thing for weeks.

Why two seperate forms? Is there a time when one is appropriate and the other isn't?
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Postby klewlis » Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:56 am

well i can't check bauer just now but my shorter lexicon indicates (inadvertently) that oikos has a broader meaning, ranging to descendants, nation, property, possessions, etc, whereas oikia seems confined to house, household.

l&s seems to say the same thing, giving even more meanings for oikos: house, abode, dwelling, any place to live in, part of a house, a room, chamber, household affairs, house-wifery, household property, house and goods, family, race.

but i can't speak to the origins of the words and why they ended up the way they did.
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Postby Bert » Sat Nov 01, 2003 9:29 pm

I found a reply by Wm. Annis to a similar question on the "learning Greek" forum. His thoughts were:

It seems that [face=SPIonic]oi)=koj[/face] can mean house or home, but also buildings/rooms associated with a house; it can also refer to a temple. From the "room" idea, [face=SPIonic]oi)=koi[/face] can refer to a single house.

It seems that [face=SPIonic]oi)ki/a[/face] mostly referes to the "home" idea: can be the building, but also means household, or even family from which one is descended, or the people in a family.


(I assume it is okay to quote him, considering it was from a public forum.)

Here [face=SPIonic]oi)ki/a[/face] seems to have a broader meaning.
Back to square one!
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Postby Dionusius Philadelphus » Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:22 pm

You run into a problem with Greek when you talk about semantic range. The fact is that each author is unique, and often you come to feel as though you're reading a different dialect every time you pick up a new text.

Both words, ἡ οἰκία and ὁ οἶκος, seem to contain abstract noun-forming suffixes -ια and -ος, both of which would indicate an original sense of "dwellingness," if that doesn't seem too obscure.

But this is an illusion; οἰκέω is probably a denominative verb formed from the same nominal root as ὁ οἶκος. The Proto-Indo-European root for all of these words is *weik-, which appears in Latin vicus (cf. vicinity) as well as Latin villa (this is an augmented form that underwent some phonological changes). The basic meaning of the root is "clan" in the sense of Latin familia, a sense which both words have (ἡ οἰκία in Plato, ὁ οἶκος in Homer). The idea of "dwelling," however, seems to have been a rather early development as it is reflected in Sanskrit as well.

So then what's the answer to your question?

It depends largely on the author. The feminine is used chiefly in Attic, the masculine in the poets, and the historians seem to use both. But Xenophon uses the terms in a technical sense to denote the estate (ὁ οἶκος) and the house proper (ἡ οἰκία).

You have to rely chiefly on context within a given text to get the precise meaning (building, family, possessions), but the two words are essentially interchangeable.
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Postby Paul » Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:49 am

Hi Dionusius,

Welcome to Textkit!

Dionusius Philadelphus wrote:But this is an illusion; [face=SPIonic]oi)ke/w[/face] is probably a denominative verb formed from the same nominal root as [face=SPIonic]oi)=koj[/face].


I am not sure what you mean by 'illusion'. I suppose it refers to the apparent abstract suffixes you mention in the prior paragraph. There is little doubt that [face=SPIonic]oi)ke/w[/face] is, as you say, denominative from [face=SPIonic]oi)=koj[/face]. But there is also little doubt that the -[face=SPIonic]i/a[/face] suffix in [face=SPIonic]oi)ki/a[/face] is indeed an 'abstract noun-forming suffix'. In fact, this suffix was especially productive in exactly this case: o-stem substantives and their denominative verbs in -[face=SPIonic]e/w[/face].

Dionusius Philadelphus wrote:The Proto-Indo-European root for all of these words is *weik-, which appears in Latin vicus (cf. vicinity)..... The basic meaning of the root is "clan" in the sense of Latin familia..


The most recent work I've checked on this (Beekes, "Comparative Indo-European Linguistics") suggests that the root meaning is not 'clan', but the 'seat' or 'place' of a tribe, family, or clan (as you say, vicus -> vicinity). But there are reasonable differences of opinion about which of these meanings came first. Moreover, one can readily see how quickly notions of 'clan' and 'the dwelling place of a clan' could intermingle.

Although hardly decisive in such an argument, it is interesting that in its earliest known occurences [face=SPIonic]oi)=koj[/face] appears in the accusative with the allative suffix -[face=SPIonic]de[/face] (motion towards a place). Specifically, the Linear B Theban tablet Of 36, which is concerned with the dispatching of wool to persons and places, refers to 'po-ti-ni-ja wo-ko-de'. This is rendered [face=SPIonic]Po/tnia Voiko/nde[/face], 'to the house of the lady'.

Cordially,

Paul

P.S. - You might want to check out http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... .php?t=111 and start using the SPIONIC font. Your diacritically marked characters in the Unicode Extended Greek range are showing up as box glyphs. Private message me if you have questions about this.
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Postby Dionusius Philadelphus » Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:17 pm

Wouldn't it be easier for people to set a Unicode font (like Palatino Linotype) as their web browser's default, rather than us SPIonic? (I use Tavultesoft Keyman and have it set up to switch between languages with hotkeys -- Alt 1 for English, Alt 2 for Greek, Alt 3 for French, etc.)

But I understand that you've got a system that works.

On the question at hand, I cut a lot out of the original post. By illusion I meant that the first analysis would have us treating [face=SPIonic]o( oi)=koj[/face] as a deverbal noun from [face=SPIonic]oi)ke/w[/face]. I was just trying to point out in the post some of the stumbling blocks in finding precise meaning.

To which you've been some help.

I'll check out Beekes. I was relying chiefly on Calvert Watkins.

Cheers,
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Postby Paul » Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:16 pm

Hi Dennis,

Dionusius Philadelphus wrote:Wouldn't it be easier for people to set a Unicode font (like Palatino Linotype) as their web browser's default, rather than us SPIonic? (I use Tavultesoft Keyman and have it set up to switch between languages with hotkeys -- Alt 1 for English, Alt 2 for Greek, Alt 3 for French, etc.)

But I understand that you've got a system that works.


I raised the very same question when I first joined Textkit. I too use Tavultesoft Keyman and set my web browser (IE) to Arial Unicode MS. Works real well.

Betacode + SPIONIC is a kind of least common denominator approach; as you say, we've a working system. And at this point the precedent is established.

Please post a reference for Calvert Watkins. I am always interested in PIE linguistics stuff.

Again, welcome to Textkit.

Cordially,

Paul
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P.I.E. resources

Postby Dionusius Philadelphus » Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:06 pm

It was out of print for awhile, but Watkins' American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots is back, and very reasonably priced ($12.60 US for the paperback, $28 for hardcover).

But the American Heritage College Dictionary actually has a less comprehensive version of the book as an appendix.

It beats running to the library and checking Pokorny or one of the massive etymological dictionaries everytime a question comes up.

There's also a fairly decent table of sound shifts in the back listing correspondences across a wide range of languages.

And thanks for the welcome.

A place like this on the web is long overdue.
Last edited by Dionusius Philadelphus on Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby annis » Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:25 pm

Another Watkins opus How to Kill a Dragon: Aspects of Indo-European Poetics is probably what they had in mind when they invented the phrase "tour de force." It's a wonderful thing. I still pick it up from time to time to read a random chapter.
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τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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