N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

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Amiros
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by Amiros »

Preliminary Exercise H (pt.2)

26. Into his alliance.
In societātem suam/eius.

27. Under the general himself.
Sub imperātōre ipsō.

28. At my house.
Domī meī. // In domō/domū meō. // Apud meum.

29. To go under the earth.
Sub terram īre.

30. About terms of peace.
Dē conditiōnibus pācis.

31. Before a year.
Ante annum.

32. Round about the city.
Circum orbem.

33. On this side of the mountain.
In hōc latere montis.

34. Besides the messenger.
Praeter/Extra nuntium.

35. Except the poet.
Praeter/Extra poētam.

(I couldn't be sure whether there was a difference between 'besides' and 'except' or not.)

36. Against Antiochus.
Adversum/contrā Antiochum.

37. About a thousand men.
Circā mille virī.

38. Around the mountain.
Circum montem.

39. Within the camp.
Intrā castra.

40. Outside the gates.
Extrā portās.

41. Bellow the city walls.
Sub mūrīs urbis.

42. In the power of the enemy.
Penes hostēs.

43. Behind the horsemen.
Post equēs.

44. According to the laws.
Dē lēgibus.

45. Contrary to the laws.
Contrā lēgēs.

46. Adjoining the camp.
Prope/Iūxtā castrōs.

47. As far as his head.
Capite suō/eius tenus.

48. Near the garden.
Prope/Iūxtā hortum.

49. The army was sent under the yoke.
Exercitus sub jugum missus est.

50. It lies under your eyes.
Sub oculōs tuōs jacet.
Latin: Trying to ge back to it. Again. (Again.)
Ancient Greek: Hoping to have time to get back to that in the future...
Other: Hebrew [native]; English [advanced]; German [advanced]; Palestinian Arabic [beginner]

Sceptra Tenens
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by Sceptra Tenens »

Amiros wrote:28. At my house.
Domī meī. // In domō/domū meō. // Apud meum.
Apud me, not meum. Also, domus is feminine - meae and mea.
Amiros wrote: 30. About terms of peace.
Dē conditiōnibus pācis.
condiciōnibus
Amiros wrote:32. Round about the city.
Circum orbem.
urbem
Amiros wrote:33. On this side of the mountain.
In hōc latere montis.
Cis montem - cis means "this side of".
Amiros wrote:43. Behind the horsemen.
Post equēs.
equites
Amiros wrote:46. Adjoining the camp.
Prope/Iūxtā castrōs.
castra
Amiros wrote:50. It lies under your eyes.
Sub oculōs tuōs jacet.
oculis tuis
Amiros wrote:44. According to the laws.
Dē lēgibus.

45. Contrary to the laws.
Contrā lēgēs.
I'm not sure about the proper terms for these, actually.
Last edited by Sceptra Tenens on Sat May 19, 2012 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by adrianus »

according to the laws = ad leges
contrary to the laws = adversus leges
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by Amiros »

Preliminary Exercise H

1. He came into the city with ten soldiers.
In urbem vēnit cum decem mīlitibus.

2. After one night he set out against the enemy.
Post noctem ūnam contrā hostēs profectus est.

3. In front of the house there is a field.
Ante/Praeter domum ager est.

4. I cannot go across the sea without ships.
Trāns Marem sine nāvibus īre nōn possum.

5. He was killed by his brother at a feast, amid all his friends.
Ā frātre suō in cēnā interfectus est, cōram amīcīs suīs.

6. He spoke to me about your house in your presence.
Dē domū/domō tuā mihi cōram tuō locūtus est.

7. He went around the city, and saw the walls.
Circum urbem īvit et mūrōs vīdit.

8. He came towards me, and called out, "Who is in the city?"
Ad mē vēnit et clamāvit "Quis est in urbe?"

9. The camp is on the side of the river, the army is beyond the city.
Castra iūxtā flūmen est, exercitus suprā urbem est.

10. On account of the war no one goes outside the gates.
Propter bellum nēmō extrā portās it.

11. Besides these men we have no army in the city.
Praeter hōs virōs nūllum exercitum in urbe habēmus.

12. We saw him on the road.
In viā eum vīdīmus.

13. He was brought by the soldiers into the presence of the king.
Ā mīlitibus cōram rēge adlātus est.
("into the presence" seems a bit awkward to me, I tried to translate it as such.)

14. They escaped from prison without my knowledge.
Ē carcere sine scientiā meā exiērunt.

15. They sailed past the island in a boat.
Prope insulam rate nāvigāvērunt.

16. We sailed as far as Spain.
Tenus Hispaniā nāvigāvimus.

17. They live near the island of Corsica.
Prope insulam Corsicae habitant.
(Or should it be "Corsicam insulam"? I'm not sure if the form "the island of X" exists in Latin or not.)

18. He did this in sight of all.
In conspectū omnium hoc fēcit.

19. I did this because of my friendship towards you.
Hoc fēcī propter amīcitiam meam tibi.

20. Were you not going towards the city?
Nōnne ad urbem ībās?

21. Men who live underground.
Virī quī sub terrā habitant.

22. He led an army over the mountains against the enemy.
Exercitum super montēs contrā hostēs dūxit.

23. After the battle they were killed outside the city walls in the presence of their friends.
Post pugnam interfectī sunt extrā mūrōs urbis cōram amīcīs suīs.

24. Before daybreak they came close to (under) the walls of the town.
Ante primam lūcem sub mūrōs oppidī vēniērunt.

25. I killed him before these things, not on account of them.
Eum ante hās rēs interfēcī, nōn ob/propter eās.
Latin: Trying to ge back to it. Again. (Again.)
Ancient Greek: Hoping to have time to get back to that in the future...
Other: Hebrew [native]; English [advanced]; German [advanced]; Palestinian Arabic [beginner]

Amiros
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by Amiros »

So, after completing the preliminary exercises, I am now deep into the book. Thanks for all who helped: adrianus, Sceptra Tenens, MatthaeusLatinus, Craig_Thomas, Ulpianus, Gregarius and anyone whom I somehow missed. I appreciate it!

I will occasionally post here questions about things that I don't quite understand. This one is from exercise 8 (p.11, p.29 in the PDF):
4. He asked me so often that I gave him the book.
The answer given by the key is:
Toties me rogavit ut librum ei dederim.
My question is: why shouldn't rogavit be rogabat? I understand this as a recurring action, and therefore should be in the imperfect. Am I wrong here?
Latin: Trying to ge back to it. Again. (Again.)
Ancient Greek: Hoping to have time to get back to that in the future...
Other: Hebrew [native]; English [advanced]; German [advanced]; Palestinian Arabic [beginner]

adrianus
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by adrianus »

Hoc propono. Toties me rogabat (tempus actioque imperfecta) ut librum ei donarer.
Toties me rogavit [tempus et actio perfecta] ut deinde librum ei dederim.


I would suggest this: He used to ask [/he asked] for the book so many times that I used to give it to me. [imperfect tense and uncompleted action]
He asked me so many times [perfect tense and completed action]that I gave it to me.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

adrianus
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by adrianus »

Hoc propono. Toties me rogabat (tempus actioque imperfecta) ut librum ei donarer.
Toties me rogavit [tempus et actio perfecta in toto] ut [deinde] librum ei dederim.


I would suggest this: He used to ask [/he asked] for the book so many times that I used to give it to him. [imperfect tense and uncompleted action]
He asked me so many times [perfect tense and completed action seen as a whole] that I [finally] gave the book to him.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by Amiros »

It seems to me that the key is wrong in this one here, from exercise 10 (p. 13, p. 31 in the PDF):
10. He was so hurt that he died.
And the answer given is:
Adeo laesus est ut mortuus sit.
Wouldn't it make more sense to use moreretur or mortuus fuerit, since the original is in the past tense?
Latin: Trying to ge back to it. Again. (Again.)
Ancient Greek: Hoping to have time to get back to that in the future...
Other: Hebrew [native]; English [advanced]; German [advanced]; Palestinian Arabic [beginner]

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by Sceptra Tenens »

Moreretur is fine, but not mortuus fuerit. But, the perfect subjunctive, mortuus sit, is also fine - Adler would say that it referred to something that recently happened. "He has (just recently) been so hurt that he has died".

Edit - changed "fit" to "sit"
Last edited by Sceptra Tenens on Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Amiros
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by Amiros »

Sceptra Tenens wrote:Moreretur is fine, but not mortuus fuerit. But, the perfect subjunctive, mortuus fit, is also fine - Adler would say that it referred to something that recently happened. "He has (just recently) been so hurt that he has died".
Yes, I meant the perfect subjunctive. It's confusing because the active is made with the perfect stem +erim/s/...
Latin: Trying to ge back to it. Again. (Again.)
Ancient Greek: Hoping to have time to get back to that in the future...
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by Sceptra Tenens »

Pardon my typo - "mortuus sit" is the perfect, not "mortuus fit". I still hesitate before producing the active pluperfect and future perfect tenses, myself.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by Robertus »

So I'm taking up where Amiros left off. I am not sure about the answers, so any follow up is appreciated :D .

26. ad eius (uel suam) societatem.
27. Sub ipso duce.
28. Apud me.
29. Sub terram ire.
30. De pacis conditionibus.
31. Ante annum.
32. Circa urbem.
33. Cis montem.
34. Juxta nuntium.
35. Praeter poetam.
36. Contra Antilochum.
37. Ad millia milites.
38. Circa montem.
39. In castra.
40. E portis.
41. Sub (uel subter) urbis muros.
42. Penes hostes.
43. Post equites.
44. Secundum leges.
45. Contra leges.
46. Juxta castra.
47. Usque ad caput.
48. Prope hortum.
49. Exercitus sub iugum missus est.
50. Ante oculos tuos.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by Robertus »

Exercise K:

1. In urbem uenit cum decem militibus.
2. Post unam noctem profectus est contra hostes.
3. Campus est ante domum.
4. Per marem sine nauis transmere non possum.
5. In cena interfectus est a fratre suo inter omnes amicos suos.
6. Coram te mihi locutus est de domo tua.
7. Circa urbem iit et muros uidit.
8. Ad me uenit et clamauit "quis in urbe?".
9.Castra cis fluminem, exercitus ultra urbem.
10. Ob bellum nemo e portis exit.
11. Praeter hos milites, nullum exercitum habemus in urbe.
12. Eum in uia uidimus.
13. Ad regem allatus est ad regem.
14. E carcere mihi clam euaserunt.
15. Praeter insulam in lintre nauigauerunt.
16. Nauigauimus usque ad Hispaniam.
17. Habitant prope insulam Corsicae.
18. Hoc fecit prae omnibus.
19. Propter amicitiam tuam hoc feci.
20. Nonne ueniebas ad urbem?
21. Vires qui sub terra habitant.
22. Super montes exercitum duxit contra (uel aduersus) hostes.
23. Post proelium interfecti sunt extra muros coram amicis suis.
24. Ante primam lucem urbis ad muros uenerunt.
25. Ante haec eum interfeci, non propter haec.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by bipesimplume »

Hi, I'm here because I'm also working through this book. This thread is great, let's resurrect it!
Amiros wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:01 pm Preliminary Exercise A
Amiros wrote: 13. We shall not be conquered by the enemy.
How about something like, ab hostibus nōn vincendī sumus (we are not to be conquered...)? Instead of merely asserting an unknowable outcome, the speaker is probably trying to encourage his troops and/or discourage the enemy, which suggests an exhortative tone.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by seneca2008 »

I dont think this works. Firstly the exercise from which you have drawn your example is designed to draw out the difference between the use of the active and passive voices. In the passive voice of course the agent is in the ablative.

You are trying to use the gerundive which is not introduced until exercises 99- 103 (along with gerunds).

That aside Woodcock says that the agent with the passive gerundive is normally expressed by the dative. Using the model pax nobis petenda est (peace is to be sought by us) Victoria nobis petenda est (victory is to be sought by us) would seem to work if you are intent on using the gerundive.

But the English sentence seems to be best expressed using the passive voice as in the original answer.

How far have you got in North and Hillard?
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by bipesimplume »

seneca2008 wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:16 pm the agent with the passive gerundive is normally expressed by the dative
Thanks a lot for your inputs, and especially for these examples with the dative. I just assumed the gerundive looking like a passive voice would take the ablative as usual. I still have work to do finessing the distinction between ablative and dative agents.
seneca2008 wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:16 pm How far have you got in North and Hillard?
Only as far as preliminary exercise E. I wasn't sure exactly how much "preliminary" knowledge was required for the main content.

How about you? What do you assess your level to be?

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by seneca2008 »

Hi

I think that there are some fundamental differences between the passive voice and gerundives (which are essentially verbal adjectives and have a passive meaning). If what you are trying to express is something in the passive voice it's best to use the passive voice of a finite verb rather than a gerundive. You may be able to construct something using the gerundive (in a passive periphrastic) but it would carry some indication of necessity which is not implicit in this example.
(Edited)

The preface of N&H tells you what you should know before tackling this book. "Before beginning this book a boy should be able to translate simple sentences (including easy questions and commands) into Latin, and should understand the rules of agreement, the use of the Passive Voice, the simplest uses of Pronouns and Prepositions, and the easiest Case constructions. (Ablative of Instrument, Agent, Cause; Dative of Indirect Object and Possessor; Accusative after Factitive Verbs, etc.) But for the occasional revision of this elementary work the "Preliminary
Exercises " (A to K) are prefixed."

So the exercises you are working on are essentially the preliminary work necessary before the prose composition work begins. The main work starts with sequence of tenses, then final and consecutive clauses. page 2 etc

You rightly ask about my level. About 20 years ago I completed a classics degree and then started work on research on Senecan tragedy which I did not complete. I am trying to revive my active knowledge by answering questions here and teaching Latin. So my Latin is nowhere near the standard it once was.

So I am very happy for people to correct me as I make mistakes.

In the past I have only used N&H intermittently to revise various topics. It's not a book I would advise anyone using to learn Latin grammar. If you have already done a course in latin why don't you just use it for revising specific topics?
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by bipesimplume »

Hi seneca2008

I took classes for a few years, but these were rather unidirectional, focusing mainly on the translation of classical texts, so my active knowledge is severely limited. Even my passive knowledge is far from thorough and has surely faded through the ages. So I need more than just a little refresher.

I was looking for a systematic explanation-plus-exercise textbook in the style of Advanced Grammar in Use, by Cambridge UP, which I found to be a prodigious resource for my self-study of English, and I thought N&H comes pretty close. Do you have a better suggestion?

Thanks again for answering my question. I hope participating here helps you recover your mastery.
Last edited by bipesimplume on Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by bipesimplume »

Amiros wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:12 pm Preliminary Exercise E
I'm confused as to why the second accusative should turn into nominative in the following sentences. Why specifically here (with creatus and habitus) and not elsewhere (besides with factus, a copulative verb, in which case I understand)?
Amiros wrote: 2. Marius, who was often elected consul, was a great general.
Marius, quī saepe consul creātus est, imperātor magnus erat.
Amiros wrote: 4. He was thought a good general by all.
Imperātor bonus ab omnibus habitus est.
Amiros wrote: 19. You, who did this, were not elected consul by the citizens.
Tu, quī id fēcistī, ā cīvibus consul nōn creātus es.
BTW: to me, 4 sounds like, the general was thought good by all, or, possibly even, the good general was accepted by all.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by seneca2008 »

bipesimplume wrote:'m confused as to why the second accusative should turn into nominative in the following sentences. Why specifically here (with creatus and habitus) and not elsewhere (besides with factus, a copulative verb, in which case I understand)?
So in 1. we have the active voice Populus Pompeium consulem creāvērunt.

in 2 "quī saepe consul creātus est," we have the passive voice "who was elected consul" and consul is the subject of the verb the agent of the verb is unstated, it is not stated by whom he was elected.

So in the active voice "the people (subject) elected Pompey consul (two objects ) [The exercise is entitled .."verbs governing two accusatives". ]

In the passive "Marius (subject), who (subject) was elected consul (subject ) [by (unstated)] was a great general

When you turn an active verb into a passive verb what was the object becomes the subject and what was the subject becomes the agent in the ablative case.

I hope that also clears up the confusion in the other sentences you quote.


"BTW: to me, 4 sounds like, the general was thought good by all, or, possibly even, the good general was accepted by all."

"Imperātor bonus" means a good general. "the general was thought good by all" means the everybody thought he was "good", but in fact everybody thought he was a "good general". We dont know whether they thought he was good in other respects.

Unless I have misunderstood you I dont think you quite understand how passive sentences work. In a passive sentence you would not expect to see a noun in the accusative, because the action of the verb is being received by the subject and is being caused by the agent (in the ablative).

I will post some suggestions for texts tomorrow. (its late here and I havent checked this post.)

I never had any mastery!
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by bipesimplume »

Thanks anew for your reply.
seneca2008 wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:58 am The exercise is entitled .."verbs governing two accusatives".
Yes, in the active voice they govern two accusatives. But in the passive rephrasing, sometimes both objects which used to be in the accusative turn into nominatives, as in the above examples. Other times, one object stays accusative. Sorry, I should have quoted these other cases from the exercise as well:
Amiros wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:12 pm 12. We were asked for the sword, which we have concealed from our father.
Rogātī sumus gladium, quem ā patre cēlāvimus.
Amiros wrote: 13. I was asked by Caius for a sword.
Gladium ā Caiō rogātus sum.
Amiros wrote: 16. Were you not taught Greek by your master?
Nōnne ā magistrō tuō/vestrō linguam Graecam doctus es/doctī estis?
These are passive sentences with nouns in the accusative (gladium, linguam). Following these examples, one could write analogously consulem creatus sum, bonum imperatorem habebatur, etc. Or why not?
seneca2008 wrote: in 2 "quī saepe consul creātus est," we have the passive voice "who was elected consul" and consul is the subject of the verb the agent of the verb is unstated, it is not stated by whom he was elected.
Forget the agent. But if I understand correctly, in the subordinate clause qui is the subject. There cannot be two subjects. Why not qui/is consulem creatus est? Likewise in 4: the subject is supposed to be "he" (implicit), and not bonus imperator.

I hope this makes my issue clear.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by seneca2008 »

Not all the verbs in this exercise can take two accusatives in the active and then two nominatives in the passive.

I hope the following extract from Allen and Greenough’s New Latin Grammar will make the grammar clear>

391. Some transitive verbs take a second accusative in addition to their Direct Object. This second accusative is either (1) a predicate accusative or (2) a secondary object.

Predicate Accusative

392. An accusative in the predicate referring to the same person or thing as the direct object, but not in apposition with it, is called a predicate accusative.

393. Verbs of naming, choosing, appointing, making, esteeming, showing, and the like, may take a predicate accusative along with the direct object.

ō Spartace, quem enim tē potius appellem? (Phil. 13.22)
O Spartacus, for what else shall I call you (than Spartacus)?

Cicerōnem cōnsulem creāre
to elect Cicero consul

Mē augurem nōmināvērunt. (Phil. 2.4)
They nominated me for augur.

cum grātiās ageret quod sē cōnsulem fēcisset (De Or. 2.268)
when he thanked him because he had made him consul
(supported his candidacy)

Hominem prae sē nēminem putāvit. (Rosc. Am. 135)
He thought nobody a man in comparison with himself.

Ducem sē praebuit. (Vat. 33)
He offered himself as a leader.

Note— The predicate accusative may be an adjective.

hominēs mītīs reddidit et mānsuētōs (Inv. 1.2)
has made men mild and gentle

a. In changing from the active voice to the passive, the predicate accusative becomes predicate nominative (§ 284).

Rēx ab suīs appellātur (B. G. 8.4)
He is called king by his subjects.
[Active: suī eum rēgem appellant.]

https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin ... ccusatives

284. A Predicate Noun or Adjective after the copula sum or a copulative verb is in the same case as the Subject.

Pācis semper auctor fuī. (Lig. 28)
I have always been an adviser of peace.

Quae pertinācia quibusdam, eadem aliīs cōnstantia vidērī potest. (Marc. 31)
What may seem obstinacy to some, may seem to others consistency.

Êius mortis sedētis ultōrēs. (Mil. 79)
You sit as avengers of his death.

Habeātur vir ēgregius Paulus. (Cat. 4.21)
Let Paulus be regarded as an extraordinary man.

Ego patrōnus exstitī. (Rosc. Am. 5)
I have come forward as an advocate.

Dīcit nōn omnīs bonōs esse beātōs.
He says that not all good men are happy.

a. A predicate noun referring to two or more singular nouns is in the plural.

Cōnsulēs creantur Caesar et Servīlius. (B. C. 3.1)
Cæsar and Servilius are elected consuls.

b. Sum in the sense of exist makes a complete predicate without a predicate noun or adjective. It is then called the substantive verb.

Sunt virī fortēs.
There are (exists) brave men.

Cf. Vīxēre fortēs ante Agamemnona (Hor. Od. 4.9.25)
Brave men lived before Agamemnon.

https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/agreement-nouns

In the examples you quoted rogare and docere do not take two accusatives "of the same person or thing" (as Gildersleeve puts it). "You teach someone a language" is different from "electing someone to be Consul."

Does this answer the original question? (I think it also explains how the relative clause you quote works.)

If you have Gildersleeve you can also look on page 216 340. double accusative and double nominative p 145 206.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

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seneca2008 wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:41 pm Does this answer the original question? (I think it also explains how the relative clause you quote works.)
Yes, that clears it up. You're been very helpful and kind. These are really points I could and should review for myself. I got me Woodcock, Gildersleeve, and Allen & Greenough for now, to refer to in case I get stuck again.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

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Woodcock is excellent, I tend to use that in conjunction with Gildersleeve. I hope you continue posting stuff here or in a new thread as its very helpful for all of use to review the grammar in this way.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

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seneca2008 wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:33 pm I hope you continue posting stuff here
Don't say it twice! Could you please check the following observations?
Amiros wrote: Sun May 06, 2012 8:30 am Preliminary Exercise G

1. A state which has a good king enjoys peace.
Cīvitas quae rēgem bonum habet pācem fruātur.
Is this a relative clause of characteristic? Should habet be habeat instead?
adrianus wrote: Sun May 06, 2012 12:09 pm 1. Yes. The indicative for a particular state: "the state, which has a good king, is enjoying peace". And "pace (ablative) fruatur".
Ut dicis,—nisi aliqua civitas significatur, quae res hîc non pertinet. Pacis verbum ablativo casu, nota, cum ablativo servet frui verbum.
I understand the relative clause of characteristic (A&G $534), but is the subjunctive in the main clause necessary as well? I couldn't find such examples. The main clause expresses a fact, so unless the context demands a subjunctive there, I'd keep it in the indicative (present, possibly future).
Amiros wrote: Sun May 06, 2012 8:30 am 7. A man who performs his duty is worthy of praise.
Dignus est laude quī officium suō fungātur.
Isn't it preferable to use laudatione/laudari rather than laude?
Amiros wrote: Sun May 06, 2012 8:30 am 8. The enemy wish to get possession of our camp.
Hostēs volunt campīs nostrīs potīrī.
Castris, not campis.
Amiros wrote: 11. A man who is contented with little is worthy of a happy life.
Quī parvō contentus sit dignus est vitā beātā.
I know it's given in the hints, but parvo contentus sounds like contented with a little one. I would write pauca = few things = little instead.
Amiros wrote: 20. You, who perform your duties well, have many friends.
Tū, quī officia tua bene fungeris, multōs amīcōs habēs.
Officiis tuis.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

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bipesimplume wrote:I understand the relative clause of characteristic (A&G $534), but is the subjunctive in the main clause necessary as well? I couldn't find such examples. The main clause expresses a fact, so unless the context demands a subjunctive there, I'd keep it in the indicative (present, possibly future).
I don't think this sentence is a relative clause of characteristic. Or rather I don't think that's the intention of the authors. These are simple sentences which do not require the use of the subjunctive. Are we saying that all states which have a good king enjoy peace? Is it a characteristic of states with good Kings? You might think so, but there are countless examples of perfectly good kings who were attacked and so their states did not enjoy peace. It is of course always difficult with single sentences without context to decide these distinctions. I take the the context of these sentences to be as set out in the introduction. In this book where a more complex construction is required rules are provided to aid the solution.

The OP is I think trying too hard.

I think the point of this sentence is to recognise that fruor takes the ablative.

"frŭor, fructus ....... Constr. with abl.; less freq. with acc. or absol." L&S https://logeion.uchicago.edu/fruor
I understand the relative clause of characteristic (A&G $534), but is the subjunctive in the main clause necessary as well?
No. you are right.
Isn't it preferable to use laudatione/laudari rather than laude?
I dont see why. Laude seems to occur quite frequently see laus https://logeion.uchicago.edu/laus It is also the word glossed in the book for praise.
Castris, not campis.
The previous posters were all too busy airing their knowledge to notice this elementary mistake. Well spotted.
I know it's given in the hints, but parvo contentus sounds like contented with a little one. I would write pauca = few things = little instead.
It's a fine distinction. But one could have many little things which did not add up to a lot or few things which added up to a great deal. I dont read it as a little one, although parvi can mean children (little ones).
Officiis tuis.
Yes fungor takes the ablative, in classical Latin but not in Plautus.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

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After a short break here goes the next exercise:
Amiros wrote: Sun May 13, 2012 11:07 amPreliminary Exercise H (pt.1)
2. At the house of Caius.
Domī Caiī.
I don't think you can use the locative here, as you're talking about someone's specific house. So e.g. Caius domī (est), but Titus in Caiī domo est.
21. He was sent to him with gifts.
Cum dōnīs eī missus est.
Ad eum would be clearer than .
23. For so great a service.
Pro meritō majōre.
I wrote prō tam magnō meritō. Tam magnō prō meritō sounds even more professional. Ob + acc. should work too, albeit with a different meaning.
24. Instead of horses.
Ob equōs.
Prō...
25. On the nearest hill.
In colle proximō.
Super...
36. Against Antiochus.
Adversum/contrā Antiochum.
Adversus...
37. About a thousand men.
Circā mille virī.
...virōs.

BTW how do you add macrons in Windows? Did you set up a latin keyboard?

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

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bipesimplume wrote:I don't think you can use the locative here, as you're talking about someone's specific house. So e.g. Caius domī (est), but Titus in Caiī domo est.
This is an exercise about prepositions so it is unlikely that the locative would feature.

Apud domum Caiī is the simplest answer.
Ad eum would be clearer than eī.
ad eum is correct here not eī
I wrote prō tam magnō meritō. Tam magnō prō meritō sounds even more professional. Ob + acc. should work too, albeit with a different meaning.
ob looks good too, I found a parallel in Livy. quamquam quod ob meritum nostrum suscensuistis, patres conscripti, nobis aut suscensetis? 25.6.4.2 25.6.5.1
24. Instead of horses.
Ob equōs.
Prō...
How about Loco, adverbially, in the place of, instead of, for.
25. On the nearest hill.
In colle proximō.
Super...

super means above or on top of. Somebody or something could be on the hill but not necessarily at the top.


36. Against Antiochus.
Adversum/contrā Antiochum.
Adversus...
L&S
adversus or adversum (archaic advor-) (like rursus and rursum, prorsus and prorsum, quorsus and quorsum), adv. and prep., denoting
37. About a thousand men.
Circā mille virī.
...virōs.
Yes circa should take accusative
BTW how do you add macrons in Windows? Did you set up a latin keyboard?
I dont use windows but I have installed the Latin keyboard from Keyman which when selected makes the insertion of macrons easy. see here https://keyman.com/keyboards?q=latin
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by bipesimplume »

Suggestions and corrections noted, thank you. Now on to K:
Amiros wrote: Mon May 21, 2012 10:57 am 6. He spoke to me about your house in your presence.
Dē domū/domō tuā mihi cōram tuō locūtus est.
cōram tuō or cōram tē? Tuī would work if the preposition took the genitive, which is not the case.
9. The camp is on the side of the river, the army is beyond the city.
Castra iūxtā flūmen est, exercitus suprā urbem est.
Castra cis flūmen est, exercitus trāns urbem est.
13. He was brought by the soldiers into the presence of the king.
Ā mīlitibus cōram rēge adlātus est.
("into the presence" seems a bit awkward to me, I tried to translate it as such.)
Isn't adlātus for objects, adductus for people?
15. They sailed past the island in a boat.
Prope insulam rate nāvigāvērunt.
Isn't there a better alternative than prope (near)? Does rate/lintre take the preposition in or not, in this situation?
16. We sailed as far as Spain.
Tenus Hispaniā nāvigāvimus.
Hispaniā tenus...

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

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bipesimplume wrote:cōram tuō or cōram tē? Tuī would work if the preposition took the genitive, which is not the case.
OLD gives cōram sē so perhaps cōram tē is best.

Apparently coram as adverb with genitive is possible but rare "With gen. (very rare): coram noxae prehensus, in the very act, Ap. Met. 9, 21, 12.—So in coram with gen. in Ap. = coram: omnium, Ap. Met. 7, p. 197, 21 (not found) Oud.; so id. ib. 9, p. 221, 17 (not found); 9, p. 223, 32 (not found); 10, 9, 18.—" L&S
Castra cis flūmen est, exercitus trāns urbem est.
I think you are trying to change the sense of the English to "the camp is on this side of the river,.." The camp, army and town could be on the same side of the river.

Suprā doesn't seem right according to OLD . It has the connotation of above, at a higher level etc rather than beyond.

Trans is according to OLD "b (without idea of motion across) on the other side of, beyond." which fits well.
Isn't adlātus for objects, adductus for people?
Yes, you are right.
Isn't there a better alternative than prope (near)? Does rate/lintre take the preposition in or not, in this situation?
I think we would need more context to come up with an alternative. Sailed past at a great distance would mean we would have to come up with an alternative, but "sailed past" implies that the island is near?
Hispaniā tenus...
Yes Gildersleeve 417 14 Tenus is always postponed.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

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seneca2008 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:07 am Apparently coram as adverb with genitive is possible but rare "With gen. (very rare): coram noxae prehensus, in the very act
Nice find!
I think you are trying to change the sense of the English to "the camp is on this side of the river,.."
My edition (9th impression, 8th edition) of N&H has precisely that wording, so I was primed for the usage of cis/trans. I didn't notice the previous commenter had the instead of this. I had noticed a couple discrepancies before.
"sailed past" implies that the island is near?
Undoubtedly. I was aiming for a more specific term conveying the sense of "motion past". How about praeter?

I'm not familiar with OLD, what does it stand for?

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

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bipesimplume wrote:How about praeter?
OLD= Oxford Latin Dictionary

Here is part of the entry for praeter. The reference to Tacitus seems to be a precedent. " simul Domitium impositum triremi vitare litorum oram praeterque insulas lato mari pergere
in Syriam iubet. (2.78.6)

praeter prep., adv. and con}. [prae-; for term. cf. INTER1]

A (as prep. w. acc.)

1 Passing or so as to pass by, past, across.
► mustela murem apstulit - pedes Pl. St. 460; ita fugias
ne - casam, quod aiunt Ter. Ph. 768; iens domum -
matris deum aedem Var. Men. 149; fluuius Eurotas, is qui
- Lacedaemonem fluit Cic. Inv. 2.96; - castra Caesaris
suas copias traduxit Caes, Gal. 1.48.2; - castra .. sua fuga
praelati Liv. 7.24.8; ea ipsa (uia) - hostes erat 10.35.4; -
oram Etruriae Ltgurumque ** peruenit Massiliam 21*26*3; -
Armeniam penetrat ad Tigrin Curt. 4.9.14; Parnasi frondea
- colla tenebat iter Stat. Theb. 9.643; — .. insulas lato mari
pergere Tac. Ann. 2.78;
— (w. oculos or sim.) — oculos Lolli
haec omnia ferebant Cic. Ver. 3.62; dona.. cum uideat — sua
lumina ferri multa Ov. Fast 3.635; nec furtiua iam scelera
sunt: - oculos eunt Sen. Dial. 4.9.1; qualis (sc. fax) .. - ora
populi meridiano transcucurrit Plin. Nat. 2.96; Tac. Hist.
4.30;— (fig.) quia uerentur ne .. — eos (i.e. 'over their heads')
ad alium res transferatur Cael. Fam. 8.10.2.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Post by bipesimplume »

Perfect. Thanks a lot for your help on these preliminary exercises. I'll now move on to the main ones.

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