Textkit Logo

Why the datives

Here's where you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Why the datives

Postby Bert » Thu Jul 03, 2003 2:03 am

I am trying to translate the following sentence:boulai\ a)xaiw=n ou)x a(nda/nousi qea|= kalh|= qumw|= I came up with something like "The plans of the Achaeans are not pleasing to the soul of the good goddess".<br />I am not very happy with it because of the three datives.<br />In order for my tranlation to be the right one, I think the last three words should be written like:qumw|= qea=j kalh=j<br />What is the correct translation of this sentence?<br />Thanks.<br /><br />Ps. I seem to have a little problem with the font yet; I can't get an accent over a letter AND a iota-subscript under it . I can do either the one or the other, but not both.<br />I also cannot get an accent over a letter without getting a break in the word, but judging by what I read in other posts, every one has that problem.<br />
Bert
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 2:28 am
Location: Arthur Ontario Canada

Re:Why the datives

Postby bingley » Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:58 am

>>I am trying to translate the following sentence:boulai\ a)xaiw=n ou)x a(nda/nousi qea|= kalh|= qumw|= I came up with something like "The plans of the Achaeans is not pleasing to the soul of the good goddess".<br />I am not very happy with it because of the three datives.<br />I would for my tranlation to be the right one, the last three words should be written like:qumw|= qea=j kalh=j <br />What is the correct translation of this sentence?<br />Thanks.<<<br /><br />It should be translated as "The plans of the Achaeans are not pleasing to the good goddess in her heart". Not very idiomatic English, perhaps, but it shows how the Greek works.<br /><br />According to the LSJ at Perseus (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%237859),a(nda/nw can be used with two datives. One of the examples there was from Iliad 1.24, which was close enough to your sentence. The Perseus text links to this comment at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0056&query=commline%3D%2315<br /><br />[24] qumw=i is not a ‘whole and part’ construction with )Agame/mnoni , but a locative, in his soul, as appears from numerous other passages.<br />
bingley
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:04 am
Location: Jakarta

Re:Why the datives

Postby annis » Thu Jul 03, 2003 2:21 pm

Bert, it is very important to keep in mind that the Greek cases have many uses, not just the direct/indirect object or possessive that you usually start learning at first.<br /><br />Each case except the nominative and vocative has motion or location implications, too. Most of the time these uses pop up with the prepositions, but in Homer, and even later poetry, the motion meanings of the cases may be used alone, without preposition.<br /><br />
    <br />
  • accusative - motion to, motion toward<br />
  • dative - location at/in/on<br />
  • genitive - motion away, motion from<br />
<br /><br />(See Pharr, sec.1053)<br /><br />This can get even trickier because the dative can also be used as a instrumental, indication the means, tool, or instrument by which you did something.<br /><br />As for your font problem, I seem to recall that you need to make sure you're using the most recent version of the font. Check out the Perseus font help page, http://perseus.uchicago.edu/Help/fonthelp.html.<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]eu)tuxei=te[/face]
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Re:Why the datives

Postby Bert » Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:12 pm

Thanks for the replies. <br /> I quess context will indicate whose heart so that it is not necessary to write qumw| authj.<br /><br />It is nice to be able to ask questions if there is something I don't understand.<br />I have not done any of the English to Greek translations. I am afraid I'd have to get every one checked because I would not know if I did it right or not. At least with Greek to English I have an idea if I am close, or way out to lunch.<br />Should I try it anyway?<br />Thanks.
Bert
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 2:28 am
Location: Arthur Ontario Canada

Re:Why the datives

Postby annis » Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:06 pm

[quote author=Bert de Haan link=board=2;threadid=209;start=0#1042 date=1057270379]<br />Thanks for the replies. <br /> I quess context will indicate whose heart so that it is not necessary to write qumw| authj.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />This spareness, this reliance on the reader/hearer to figure out what goes where from context, is typical of both Greek and Latin literature. It's one of the reasons I dislike single-sentence exercises in these languages.<br /><br />
<br />I have not done any of the English to Greek translations. I am afraid I'd have to get every one checked because I would not know if I did it right or not. At least with Greek to English I have an idea if I am close, or way out to lunch.<br />Should I try it anyway?<br />
<br /><br />I would! For Pharr I would do the Greek to English, then the English to Greek, then finally the Iliad text once I got that far. The first two sets of work often make the Iliad text much easier.<br /><br />If a sentence really boggles, post it on the forum.<br />
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA


Return to Learning Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 34 guests