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N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

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N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:01 pm

Ok, so after finally overcoming Moreland & Fleischer a few months ago, I've decided it's about time that I deepen my Latin knowledge with a composition book. So I'm doing N&H Prose Composition, but since the answer key doesn't include the preliminary exercises, which I really need for revision, I will post them here hoping anyone would help. So here goes.

Preliminary Exercise A

1. The land was ruled by a good king.
Terra ab rege bonō regebātur/recta est.

2. The soldier was killed by an arrow.
miles ab sagittā interficiēbātur/interfectus est.

3. The boy killed the bird with a stone.
puer avem lapide interficiēbat/interfecit.

4. The Roman general was defeated by Hannibal.
imperator romanus ab Hannibale superabātur/superātus est.

5. The soldier killed the peasant with a sword.
miles agricolam cum gladiō interficiēbat/interfecit.

6. We have been conquered by the enemy.
ab hostilibus vincebāmur/victī sumus.

7. The walls were defended by the citizens.
Murī a civibus defendebantur/defensī sunt.

8. Our city was built by Romulus.
Urbs ab Romulō aedificabātur/aedificata est.

9. The Romans fortified their city with a wall.
Romanī urbem eōrum murō munibant/munivērunt.

10. Gaul is separated from Britain by the sea.
Gallia a Britanniā mare dividitur.

11. A high wall defends the camp.
murus altus castrum defendit.

12. We are loved by our friends, and we love them.
Ab amicīs amāmur, eōsque amāmus.

13. We shall not be conquered by the enemy.
Ab hostilibus nōn vincantur.

14. The camp is defended by a long wall.
Castrum a murō longō defenditur.

15. The citizens defended the city.
Civēs urbem defendebant/defendērunt.

16. Cities are defended by the citizens.
Urbēs a civibus defenduntur.

17. We have taken the camp.
Castrum accepimus.

18. The camp has been taken by us.
Castrum a nobīs accipiēbātur/acceptum est.

19. They are teaching the boys.
Puerōs docent.

20. The boys are taught by books.
Puerī librīs docentur.

Thanks!
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Sceptra Tenens » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:53 am

Note: I don't feel like cross-referencing vocabulary, so I will assume that the words you chose are valid.

1. The land was ruled by a good king.
Terra ab rege bonō regebātur/recta est.

Good.

2. The soldier was killed by an arrow.
miles ab sagittā interficiēbātur/interfectus est.


Scratch ab - that is only used for people.

3. The boy killed the bird with a stone.
puer avem lapide interficiēbat/interfecit.


Good, except that I can't think of any time in which the simple past for this particular phrase would be translated as the imperfect.

4. The Roman general was defeated by Hannibal.
imperator romanus ab Hannibale superabātur/superātus est.


Same complaint here as in 3. In 1, the imperfect is conceivable - "The land [while these things were happening] was ruled by a good king" = "The land was being ruled by a good king". But, the statements in 3 and 4 sound profoundly perfective to me. I suppose some situation could be dreamed up in which they really mean "the boy was killing" and "the Roman general was being defeated", but I can't imagine them, standing alone with their English wording, being intended as imperfect.

I won't mention this complaint again, so that I can focus on other issues.

5. The soldier killed the peasant with a sword.
miles agricolam cum gladiō interficiēbat/interfecit.


Just gladio, no cum, unless there is an adjective... or something like that.

6. We have been conquered by the enemy.
ab hostilibus vincebāmur/victī sumus.


Hostibus. Also, unlike my earlier complaints about the imperfect, which are debatable, the imperfect is absolutely impermissible here. "We have been" is clearly perfective.

7. The walls were defended by the citizens.
Murī a civibus defendebantur/defensī sunt.


Good.

8. Our city was built by Romulus.
Urbs ab Romulō aedificabātur/aedificata est.


Good.

9. The Romans fortified their city with a wall.
Romanī urbem eōrum murō munibant/munivērunt.


Suam, not eorum.

10. Gaul is separated from Britain by the sea.
Gallia a Britanniā mare dividitur.


Mare has an I in the ablative - mari.

11. A high wall defends the camp.
murus altus castrum defendit.


Castra, -orum for "camp" - castrum just means "tent", I think.

12. We are loved by our friends, and we love them.
Ab amicīs amāmur, eōsque amāmus.


Good.

13. We shall not be conquered by the enemy.
Ab hostilibus nōn vincantur.


Hostibus, vincemur - you had the person and thematic vowel mistaken in the verb. Third and fourth conjugation future indicatives take -a- in the first person singular (agam), but -e- in all other persons (ages, aget, agemus, agetis, agent).

14. The camp is defended by a long wall.
Castrum a murō longō defenditur.


Castra muro longo defenduntur

15. The citizens defended the city.
Civēs urbem defendebant/defendērunt.


Good

16. Cities are defended by the citizens.
Urbēs a civibus defenduntur.


Good.

17. We have taken the camp.
Castrum accepimus.


Castra again. Also, accipere is "to accept" or "to receive", when you really need something meaning "to seize" here.

18. The camp has been taken by us.
Castrum a nobīs accipiēbātur/acceptum est.


See my comments on 17.

19. They are teaching the boys.
Puerōs docent.


Good.

20. The boys are taught by books.
Puerī librīs docentur.


Good.

Thanks!


You're welcome, glad to be a help!
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:45 am

Thanks Sceptra Tenens, this is really helpful. I think I should revise the Latin use of the perfect vs. imperfect, as it is not as in English (not to mention that I made a mistake with the English one in no.6 as well).

In 13 I actually thought that I should use the subjunctive, Craig referred to that in the other thread. Should have been more careful with the person though.

It's funny that I've actually used castra at first, and then changed it all to castrum since I thought the first was a mistake... :o
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Sceptra Tenens » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:30 pm

The subjunctive in 13 would mean "let's not be defeated", which isn't all that assertive ;)
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Gregarius » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:45 pm

2. The soldier was killed by an arrow.
miles ab sagittā interficiēbātur/interfectus est.


Scratch ab - that is only used for people.


Not to put too fine a point on it, or to sidetrack, but ab can also be used for beings with will, such as animals and gods, right?
Last edited by Gregarius on Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby adrianus » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:44 pm

We shall not be conquered by the enemy.

If the person who composed the sentence 100 years ago (or whenever) is English, "shall" is probably meant to be simple future:
Si anglicus qui sententiam composuit abhinc annos centum (vel quandoque), futurum indicativo modo significat "shall" ut jam dicit Sceptra Tenens:

Ab hostibus non vincemur.

If the person who composed the English 100 years ago (or whenever) is non-English, "shall" is probably emphatic,—a command (expressible as a negative command by the perfect subjunctive with ne):
Aliter, emphaticum vel jussum est,—quod negativum per tempus perfectum modo subjunctivo cum "ne" exprimatur:

Ab hostibus ne vincti simus.

Post scriptum.

OK. I just saw it was N&H (didn't I read your heading?). North and Hillard are English and 19th-century, so "I shall, you will, he will, we shall, you will, they will" for the future simple.
Grammaticam adhibitam modo animadverti (titulum neglexi!). Anglici auctores, undevicesimi saeculi.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:47 am

Interesting comment about the English, adrianus, thanks. for a non-native English speaker like me this modal verb might sometimes be confusing, I shall (I mean should! Just kidding) revise it.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Sceptra Tenens » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:17 pm

Gregarius wrote:Note to put too fine a point on it, or to sidetrack, but ab can also be used for beings with will, such as animals and gods, right?


Gods certainly. I really don't know about animals - I wouldn't be surprised if it depended on the context.

Adriane: Sum Americanus, at ne momento quidem temporis eam sententiam putavi esse imperativam. Gandalf ad Balrog clamavit "You shall not pass!!11!", quod certe imperativum fuit, sed hoc "We shall not be defeated" mihi significat "certe non vincemur". Quia anglicus est, qui scripsit, "non vincemur" sine "certe".
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby adrianus » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:42 pm

Sceptra Tenens wrote:sed hoc "We shall not be defeated" mihi significat "certe non vincemur". Quia anglicus est, qui scripsit, "non vincemur" sine "certe".

That's not so far from the emphatic sense I believe I meant, Sceptra Tenens, that I don't see as very different from a commandment, "Thou shalt not", or an exhortation. It depends on your tone of voice, perhaps. And maybe I'm not right.
Hoc est sensum emphaticum à me significatum, Sceptra Tenens, quod per accentum simile est jussi vel exhortationis. Forsit nugas dico.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Sceptra Tenens » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:44 pm

Yes, I think it would depend in part on the tone of voice. But, at the time of "thou shalt not", I believe that "shall/shalt" was only emphatic outside of the first person, whereas "will" was the emphatic form for I/We. Of course, that only supports what you said about English authors.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby adrianus » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:55 pm

Well, I admit I'm confused as to who exactly we're talking about and what period we're talking about. My fault, no doubt. :D
Confusus sum, fateor, de quo tractamus et de quâ aetate. Meâ culpâ certé.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby MatthaeusLatinus » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:52 pm

whom! :)
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Ulpianus » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:05 pm

... We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender ...

(He was born in 1874)
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby adrianus » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:31 am

Informal and relatively neutral, Mathaeus. Nothing wrong there. :D
Affabiliter dictu et benè commune, Mathaee, sine impedimento.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:49 am

Preliminary Exercise B

1. Give me this book.
Da mihi hunc librum.

2. Do not give him a sword, but give him arrows.
Nole dare eī gladium, sed da eī sagittās.

3. Let us go, and let them remain here.
Eāmus, maneant hic.

4. do not go home, but return to us.
Nole ire domum, sed nobis redīte.

5. Let him go away now, but come again.
Nunc Eat, sed iterum veniat.

6. Keep these books. Do not lose them.
Servā hōs librōs. Eōs nole perdere.

7. Let us fortify the city with walls.
Urbem muniāmus.

8. Do not let us return to the city (I assume that this is a very archaic use of the English hortative, not an imperative because that hardly makes sense.)
Ad urbem nē redeāmus.

9. Boys, obey your masters.
Puerī, magistrīs parēte.

10. Let us spend the winter in the city.
Agāmus hieme in urbe.

11. Do not remain at home.
Domī nolite manēre.

12. Let them build ships. Let them not be afraid of the sea.
Navēs aedificent. Mare ne timeant.

13. Do not give me the book.
Librum mihi nole dare.

14. This is Caius's book—give it to him.
Liber Caiī est – eī eum dā.

15. Do not let us remain here.
Hic ne maneāmus.

16. Let him be killed.
Interficiātur.

17. Do not be afraid of the sea.
Mare nole timēre.

18. Citizens, defend the city with your arms.
Civēs, urbem armīs defendite.

19. Give me the letter.
Litterās mihi dā.

20. Let all return to the city.
Cunctī ad urbem redeant.

Wow! What a noticeable improvement in fluency, I only needed some practice to let it come more naturally again (although I'm sure I still have mistakes here).

A question about style: should imperatives come at the beginning or at the end of sentences? I assume there are different stylistic practices varying through time, authors and literally genres.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Craig_Thomas » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:08 pm

All I can see wrong with those: your consistent use of nole in place of nōlī; hieme in place of hiemem in 10; nōbīs in place of ad nōs in 4 (and that one's arguable).
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:43 pm

Craig_Thomas wrote:All I can see wrong with those: your consistent use of nole in place of nōlī; hieme in place of hiemem in 10; nōbīs in place of ad nōs in 4 (and that one's arguable).

Noli indeed! I wonder how it happened that I adopted the wrong form.

About hiemem agere: I probably thought that it should be ablative. Maybe it's because of Whitaker's Word's definition of agere:
Words Version 1.97Ed wrote:ago, agere, egi, actus V [XXXAO]
drive, urge, conduct; spend (time w/cum); thank (w/gratias); deliver (speech);

I didn't use cum though. cum hieme agere seems weird to me anyway. Maybe someone could clear this up.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Sceptra Tenens » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:33 pm

Cum is used for the thing you are spending time with - Romulus in caelo cum dīs agit aevom, "Romulus is spending eternity in the sky with the gods".

Give me this book.


I know you didn't write this, but it sounds odd. I don't think I'd even say that in English, except maybe if I were at Barnes & Noble holding up a book that I wanted someone to buy me for Christmas... or something... Or, perhaps, "give this book back to me when you are done with it."

I'd think istum librum if the hearer is holding the book, near it or owns it, and illum otherwise. This isn't your issue, though.

Amiros wrote:14. This is Caius's book—give it to him.
Liber Caiī est – eī eum dā.


I don't know why the author used a C in Gaius - that was the spelling before the letter G was created.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:03 am

Preliminary Exercise C

1. Romulus, son of Mars, was the first king of the Romans.
Romulus, filius Maris, rex primus Romanōrum erat.

2. Obey the king, the father of his country.
Parēte regī, patrī patriae nostrae.

3. You and your brother will be killed by the enemy.
Tu et frater tuus ab hostibus interficiēminī.

4. Caius and I are well.
Caius et ego velēmus.

5. The youths were killed by their fother, Brutus.
Juvenēs interfectī sunt ab patre suō, Brutō.

6. You and I and your friends will set out.
Tu et ego et amicī tuī proficiscēmur.

7. The king and queen are dear to all of the citizens.
Rex et regina carī sunt omnibus civibus.

8. By good laws Numa, the second king of Rome, benefited his country.
Legibus bonīs Numa, rex secundus Romae, patriae suae proderat.

9. Both men and women were killed by the soldiers.
Et virī et feminae ab milibus interfectī sunt.

10. All of us love life, the greatest gift of the gods.
Nos omnēs amāmus vitam, donum maximum deōrum.

11. The king lost his kingdom and his riches, the things most pleasant to him.
Rex perdidit regnum suum et divitiās suās, rēs jucundissimās eī.

12. Citizens, obey me, your king.
Civēs, parete mihi, regī vestrō.

13. Neither the king nor his sons will be killed.
Nec rex nec filiī suī interficiēntur.

14. The king and his son Caius have been killed.
Rex et filius tuus Caius interfectī sunt.

15. He and I will go away.
Is et ego abibimus.

16. Give the letter to me, your king.
Dā(te) litterās mihi, regī tuō/vestrō.

17. She and her brother have been sent home.
Ea et frater suus domum missī sunt.

18. His father, the king of Italy, has sent him.
Pater eius, rex Italiae, eum misit.

19. I have come to you, my own brother.
Venī tuō, fratrī meō.

20. Both the men and the women are good citizens.
Et virī et feminae sunt civēs bonī.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby adrianus » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:20 am

Bene factum est, Amiros,—separatim haec pauca.
1. Martis
2. patriae nostrae, ut dicis, vel patriae vel patriae eius vel patriae ipsius
4. Valemus
5. a patre ante ab patre
ab before vowels and h and often before l,n,r,s and sometimes before c,j,d,t, an almost never before labials p,b,f,v
ab ante vocales et saepe l,n,r,s consonantes, nonnunquam ante c,j,d,t, rarissimè ante p,b,f,v labiales
14. filius suus
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Craig_Thomas » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:01 pm

9. Mīlitibus

19. Vēnī tibī, I think you mean, though it might more correctly be vēnī ad tē, fratrem meum or somesuch
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:14 pm

I've decided to mark all macrons from now on, not only the grammatical ones, in order to practice my vocabulary.

I have a bad feeling about this one, sorry if there's a lot of mistakes.

Preliminary Exercise D

1. Who saw the man, who killed the king?
Quis virum vīdit, quī rēgem interfēcit?

2. Did you, who were present, see him?
Vīdīsne eum tū, quī aderās??

3. Did not Marius, the Roman general, conquer the Teutones?
Nōnne Marius, imperātor Rōmānus, Teutōnēs vīcit?

4. He was not killed by the enemy, was he?
Num ab hostibus interfēctus est?

5. Has he lost the presents which you gave him?
Perdidītne dōna, quae eī dēderās?

6. What general conquered the Teutones?
Quis imperātor Teutōnēs vīcit?

7. What did you buy for your brother?
Quid ēmīs fratrī tuō?

8. I have lost the book which I bought for my brother.
Perdidī librum, quem fratrī meō ēmeram.

9. Whose son are you?
Cuius filius es?

10. Were you not present?
Nōnne aderās?

11. Surely he did not say that?
Nōnne id dīxit?

12. What name is dearest to you?
Quod nōmen tibi cārissimum est?

13. This is the book that I lost.
Hic est liber quem perdidī.

14. What cities has he taken?
Quās urbēs cēpit?

15. By whom was he killed?
Ā quō interfectus est?

16. Am I not your father?
Num pāter tuus sum?

17. He did not say that, did he?
Nōnne id dīxit?
I don't see any difference between that and no. 11.

18. She is not the woman, whose son was present.
Nōn est fēmina, cuius filius aderat.

19. What city do I see?
Quam urbem videō?

20. What man's house have you bought?
Domum cuius virī ēmistis?
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Sceptra Tenens » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:00 pm

Amiros wrote:2. Did you, who were present, see him?
Vīdīsne eum tū, quī aderās??


vīdistīne for the singluar. But, "you who were present" sounds plural to me, so vīdistisne eum vōs, quī aderātis?

4. He was not killed by the enemy, was he?
Num ab hostibus interfēctus est?


The e in interfectus is of hidden quantity. There is no evidence that it was long.

5. Has he lost the presents which you gave him?
Perdidītne dōna, quae eī dēderās?


Final T in a word shortens the vowel, so the I in perdidit is short. The E in dederās is short.

6. What general conquered the Teutones?
Quis imperātor Teutōnēs vīcit?


Nothing wrong here, but I thought I would note that you don't *have* to use quis in this sort of sentence - quī imperātor would be fine as well. But, I think (not sure) that Cicero liked to use quis before vowels.

7. What did you buy for your brother?
Quid ēmīs fratrī tuō?


ēmistī

11. Surely he did not say that?
Nōnne id dīxit?


Here you want num.

EDIT - I accidentally published before finishing. The rest will be in the next post.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Sceptra Tenens » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:27 pm

13. This is the book that I lost.
Hic est liber quem perdidī.


Just a note: The I in hic is short, as you have indicated, but the syllable is heavy. That is to say, the C is doubled at least when followed by a vowel, making "hic est" sound like hiccest.

16. Am I not your father?
Num pāter tuus sum?


Image

The A in pater is short, but the one in māter is long. It's a bit confusing at first.

This is apparently an ancient distinction - it's present in Ancient Greek as well, which actually gives different vowels to the two: πατήρ for "father", μήτηρ for "mother".

17. He did not say that, did he?
Nōnne id dīxit?
I don't see any difference between that and no. 11.


I think that here the writer means what we would write as "He said that, didn't he?". So, nōnne is correct here, but not in 11.

18. She is not the woman, whose son was present.
Nōn est fēmina, cuius filius aderat.


It may be worth it to add an illa to go with fēmina - I read it as "it isn't a woman whose son was present". Although, context would probably be sufficient for that.

The first I in fīlius is long.

quote]20. What man's house have you bought?
Domum cuius virī ēmistis?[/quote]

Just a note: consonantal I in the middle of a word makes the preceding syllable heavy. Cuius in this example is pronounced cui-ius. That doesn't change the answer, though.
mihi iussa capessere fas est
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby adrianus » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:16 am

Sic puto:
4. He was not killed by the enemy, was he? (surprised/annoyed) or Surely he wasn't killed by the enemy?
An ab hostibus interfectus sit? vel Num ab hostibus interfectus est?

11. Surely he did not say that?
Num id dixit?

16. Am I not your father? = Surely I am your father.
Nonne pater tuus sum?

17. He did not say that, did he? (surprised/annoyed) or Surely he didn't say that.
An id dixerit? vel Num id dixit?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby adrianus » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:48 am

N&H, p.86 wrote:Exemplum c
Num Caesar ad castra advenit?
Caesar has not reached the camp, has he?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:12 am

Thanks Sceptra Tenens and adrianus! I should pay more attention to some small details. It seems like I remembered that the 2. person endings in the perfect are istī and istis only after going through half of the exercise...

It's also funny how I studied the difference between nōnne and num, but then gave them the opposite meanings. Maybe it was because of the negation implied in the first, while it's actually used for questions expecting a positive answer. But now that I think of it, there's a similar use in Hebrew!
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:12 pm

Preliminary Exercise E

1. The people elected Pompey consul.
Populus Pompeium consulem creāvērunt.

2. Marius, who was often elected consul, was a great general.
Marius, quī saepe consul creātus est, imperātor magnus erat.

3. You have often asked me for advice, which I cannot give you.
Saepe mē rogāvistī/is cōnsilium, quod tibi/vōbīs dāre nōn possum.

4. He was thought a good general by all.
Imperātor bonus ab omnibus habitus est.

5. You wished to conceal the sword from me, but it was given me by the slave.
Voluistī/is gladium ā mē cēlāre, sed mihi ā servō dātus est.

6. You have been taught many things by your master.
Multōs ā magistrō tuō doctus es / vestrō doctī estis.

7. Did I not teach you Greek?
Nōnne tē/vōs linguam Graecam docuī?

8. The general asked the consul for the soldiers.
Imperātor consulem mīlitēs rogāvit.

9. Marius, who became the enemy of Sulla, killed many Roman citizens.
Marius, quī inimīcus Sullae factus est, multōs cīvēs Rōmānōs interfēcit.

10. You and I will hide this from our friends.
Tu et ego ab amīcīs id cēlābimus.

11. He, having been made king, did not ask his people for advice.
Is, rex factus, populum suum cōnsilium nōn rogāvit.

12. We were asked for the sword, which we have concealed from our father.
Rogātī sumus gladium, quem ā patre cēlāvimus.

13. I was asked by Caius for a sword.
Gladium ā Caiō rogātus sum.

14. They were thought to be very wise.
Habitī sunt multō sapientēs.

15. I hid from Caius the sword for which you asked me.
Cēlāvī ab Caiō gladium, quem mē rogāvistī.

16. Were you not taught Greek by your master?
Nōnne ā magistrō tuō/vestrō linguam Graecam doctus es/doctī estis?

17. They became consuls, because they were thought to be wise.
Consulēs factī sunt, quod sapientēs habitī sunt.

18. Why did you hide this from Caius?
Cur ā Caiō id cēlāvistī/is?

19. You, who did this, were not elected consul by the citizens.
Tu, quī id fēcistī, ā cīvibus consul nōn creātus es.

20. The man, whom you asked for advice, has taught me many things.
Vir, quem cōnsilium rogāvistī/is, multōs mē docuit.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Craig_Thomas » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:41 am

1. The subject is singular, and so the verb should be.

3. I wonder if possum should be in the perfect tense here. It seems logical to me.

6. 'Many things' = neuter plural.

10. 'This' probably means they want a form of hic.

14. Better valdē than multō, I think, or the superlative of sapiēns.

18. As 10, above.

19. As 10.

20. As 6.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby MatthaeusLatinus » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:01 pm

celare doesn't need a preposition, it takes a double accusative object like docere or rogare. E.g. doces me linguam, te rogo sententiam
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:11 pm

Preliminary Exercise F

1. He killed himself with his own sword.
Sē gladiō suō interfēcit.

2. He has a garden which was given him by his friend.
Eī hortus, quī eī ab amīcō suō dātus est.

3. He bought the house for himself and his wife.
Domum suī et feminae suae ēmit.

4. I have never seen him himself, but I have seen his children.
Numquam eum ipsum vīdī, sed vīdī līberōs suōs.

5., His children ask him for bread, which he cannot give them.
Līberī eius eum rogant pānem, quem eīs dāre nōn potest.

6. He has given his children the bread which they asked him for.
Dedit līberīs suīs pānem, quem eum rogāverant.

7. They have ships and sailors, but they have not many harbours.
Habent nāvēs nautāsque, sed multōs portūs nōn habent.

8. He wished to conceal his opinion from me, but I asked his friends.
Volēbat sententiam suam mē cēlāre, sed amīcōs eius rogāvī.

9. Your Gauls fear Caesar and his army.
Gallī tuī timent Caesarem et legiōnem eius.

10. He led his army against the Gauls, and took their camp.
Legiōnem suum contrā Gallōs dūxit, et castra eōrum cēpit.

11. The citizens themselves wished to make him consul.
Cīvēs ipsī volēbant eum cōnsulem facere.

12. We have many friends, whom we do not often see.
Multōs amīcōs habēmus, quōs nōn saepe vidēmus.

13. I myself will give you his sword.
Ego ipse gladium eius tibi dābō.

14. We ourselves have many ships.
Nōs ipsī multās nāvēs habēmus.

15. He himself gave me his own sword.
Is ipse gladium ipsī mihi dēdit.
(Should eius come here before ipsī?)

16. I killed him, because he wished to make himself king.
Eum interfēcī, quod suum ipsum rēgem facere volēbat.
(I assume ipsum is needed in the subordinate clause, although the subject of the main clause is first person and therefore suum cannot refer to it anyway.)

17. I had many friends once, but now I have few.
Multōs amīcōs ōlim habēbam, sed nunc habeō paucōs.

18. I asked you for their bread.
Tē/Vōs pānem eōrum/eārum rogāvī.

19. They gave us their sailors and ships.
Nautās et nāvēs suās nōbīs dēdērunt.

20. We ourselves have been taught many things by him.
Nōs ipsī multa ab eō doctī sunt.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Craig_Thomas » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:58 am

2. He has a garden which was given him by his friend.
Eī hortus, quī eī ab amīcō suō dātus est.

Hortus is the subject here, so ab amīcō suō, with the reflexive adjective, means 'by its [i.e., the garden's] own friend'. You could either alter the subordinate clause to express the possession non-reflexively or alter the main clause to make 'he' its subject.

3. He bought the house for himself and his wife.
Domum suī et feminae suae ēmit.

Suī is genitive. I think you want the dative.

9. Your Gauls fear Caesar and his army.
Gallī tuī timent Caesarem et legiōnem eius.

10. He led his army against the Gauls, and took their camp.
Legiōnem suum contrā Gallōs dūxit, et castra eōrum cēpit.

Exercitus is the usual word for an army.

15. He himself gave me his own sword.
Is ipse gladium ipsī mihi dēdit.
(Should eius come here before ipsī?)

The sword here belongs to the subject of the sentence, so the reflexive possessive adjective should be used.

16. I killed him, because he wished to make himself king.
Eum interfēcī, quod suum ipsum rēgem facere volēbat.
(I assume ipsum is needed in the subordinate clause, although the subject of the main clause is first person and therefore suum cannot refer to it anyway.)

I don't know about this one. What you've written doesn't look right to me, but I'm not sure if it can be corrected by just leaving out suum or not.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby adrianus » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:04 am

Craig_Thomas wrote:I don't know about this one.

Nonnè "Eum interfeci quod is se regem facere volebat." vel "Eum interfeci qui se facere vellet regem."
Here se refers to the subject of its own clause. (Direct reflexive, A&G §300.)
Hîc se pronomen subjectum clausulae suae spectat. (De pronomine reflexo et directo, inquire in A&G, sectionem trecentesimam.)
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:30 pm

I'm confused. I learned Latin with M&F's intensive course, and their explanation of the direct and indirect reflexive is different. M&F (p. 237) seem to be stricter when it comes to the rules determining the part of the sentence to which a reflexive would refer, while A&G's seems to be more like a guideline.

Moreover, M&F say that the intensive pronoun is used in addition to the reflexive make it a direct one, while A&G say that it comes instead of the indirect reflexive, and only by later authors instead of the direct one.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby adrianus » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:30 pm

M&F, p.237, wrote:However, in subordinate subjunctive clauses and in indirect statement, the reflexive refers to the subject of the main clause and not to that of the clause in which it appears. This use is called the indirect reflexive.


N&H, p.40, wrote:Rule 7, In simple sentences "se" refers to the subject of its own clause. In Indirect Statement (Acc. with Inf.) use se with reference to the subject of the principal verb; i.e. the verb of 'saying.' 'Eum,' 'eos' must not be used for the speaker.


"eum interfeci quod is se facere volebat regem"

This is a clause inside a clause. In "is se facere volebat regem" the "se" in subclause "se facere regem" does refer to the subject of the verb of 'saying' in the subclause "is X volebat", in this case to the subject of the verb of wishing. It just so happens that here it is not the principal verb of the main clause. Nor is the "is x volebat" clause a case of indirect speech hanging off the main clause "eum interfeci".

Clausula intra clausulam hîc habes, quâ se pronomen ad subjectum verbi orationi obliquae serventem pertinet, etiamsi non ad subjectum verbi clausulae principalis. Nec exemplum orationis obliquae est clausula per "is X volebat" à clausulâ primâ pendens.

A&G, §300.2, Note, wrote:"Sometimes the person or thing to which the reflexive refers is not the grammatical subject of the main clause, though it is in effect the subject of discourse."


"He said that he had killed him because he wished to make himself king."
"Dixit se eum interfecisse quod is se facere voluisset regem." (nisi fallor)


I don't think you can avoid the ambiguity in this reported speech. Even this,
"Dixit se eum interfecisse qui se facere voluisset regem",
as well as the previous example, could mean "He said that he killed that man because that man wanted to make him (the killer) the king."

Ambiguitatem evitare non potes, ut opinor. Cum "Dixit se eum interfecisse qui se facere voluisset regem", significari potest hoc: "Locutor dixit se alium interfecisse quod alius voluisset ut locutorem fecisset regem."

Vide http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WmT6mS5v4dAC&pg=PA24 (pp.24-26)

Note that this is ambiguous in English, also. // Ambiguum et anglicé, nota.
"He said that he had killed him because he wished to make himself king."
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Sun May 06, 2012 8:30 am

Preliminary Exercise G

1. A state which has a good king enjoys peace.
Cīvitas quae rēgem bonum habet pācem fruātur.
Is this a relative clause of characteristic? Should habet be habeat instead?

2. Relying on the courage of his soldiers, he led them against the enemy.
Virtūte mīlitum suōrum frētus, contrā hostēs eōs dūxit.

3. They died of fear.
Metū mortuī sunt.

4. Oxen feed on grass, and lions on flesh.
Bovēs gramine vescuntur, leōnēsque carne.

5. We use riches, and wish to get possession of them.
Dīvitiīs ūtimur, et volumus eīs potīrī.

6. Relying on his wings, Mercury had no need of a ship.
ālīs suīs frētus, Mercuriō nāve opus nōn erat.

7. A man who performs his duty is worthy of praise.
Dignus est laude quī officium suō fungātur.

8. The enemy wish to get possession of our camp.
Hostēs volunt campīs nostrīs potīrī.

9. Through his help I can now use my sword.
Auxiliō eius possum jam gladiō meō ūtī.

10. We have need of the soldiers we have asked him for.
Opus est nōbis mīlitibus quōs eum rogāvimus.

11. A man who is contented with little is worthy of a happy life.
Quī parvō contentus sit dignus est vitā beātā.

12. We shall often use the books which you have given us.
Saepe librīs ūtēmur, quōs nōbis dāvistī/is

13. You seem to me to be worthy of praise.
Vidēris mihi dignus laude.

14. We have no need of these ships.
Nōbis hīs nāvibus opus nōn est.

15. They attacked the city, relying on the courage of their soldiers.
Urbem aggressī sunt, virtūte mīlitum suōrum frētī.

16. I did this through the advice of Caius.
Cōnsiliō Caiī hoc fēcī.

17. By this courage he took the city.
Hāc virtūte urbem cēpit.

18. Did you use the riches which were given you?
Ūsusne es dīvitiīs quae tibi dātae erant?

19. Many men have died of hunger.
Multī virī fame mortuī sunt.

20. You, who perform your duties well, have many friends.
Tū, quī officia tua bene fungeris, multōs amīcōs habēs.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby adrianus » Sun May 06, 2012 12:09 pm

1. Yes. The indicative for a particular state: "the state, which has a good king, is enjoying peace". And "pace (ablative) fruatur".
Ut dicis,—nisi aliqua civitas significatur, quae res hîc non pertinet. Pacis verbum ablativo casu, nota, cum ablativo servet frui verbum.

12. dedisti
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby Amiros » Sun May 13, 2012 11:07 am

The next exercise is comprised of small chunks of prepositional phrases, and not real sentences. Sometimes its hard to understand the meaning because of lack of context.

It is rather long, so I will post it in two parts.

Preliminary Exercise H (pt.1)

1. Among the captives.
Apud captīvōs.

2. At the house of Caius.
Domī Caiī.

3. Over and above the dowry.
Super dōte.

4. Before his feet.
Ante pēdēs suōs/euis.

5. Without a ransom.
Sine pretiō.

6. From him.
Ab eō.

7. With his friends.
Cum amīcīs suīs/eius.

8. With you.
Tēcum/vōbiscum.

9. Because of his age.
Propter aetātem suam/eius.

10. Owing to his joy.
dēbitus/a/ī gaudiō (dat.) suō/eius.

11. Through fear.
Per metum.

12. Kind towards the poor.
Humanus/a/ī ergā pauperēs.

13. To advance towards the city.
ad urbem aggrēdī.

14. Through the river.
Per fluminem.

15. In the presence of the king.
Cōram rēge.

16. Through scouts.
Per explorātōrēs.

17. By the king.
Ab rēge.

18. From the fame of his deeds.
Gloriā actiōnum suōrum/eius.

19. From that time.
Ā tempore illō.

20. Out of the bravest soldiers.
Ē mīlitibus fortissimīs.

21. He was sent to him with gifts.
Cum dōnīs eī missus est.

22. As hostages.
(I'm not sure about this one.)

23. For so great a service.
Pro meritō majōre.

24. Instead of horses.
Ob equōs.

25. On the nearest hill.
In colle proximō.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby adrianus » Sun May 13, 2012 2:38 pm

1. vel apud vel in vel inter
2. vel in domo Caii vel apud Caium vel ad Caium
3. vel urbem versús vel adversùs urbem
16. vel exploratoribus
17.vel a rege vel ab rege
18. vel ex eo/illo tempore
22. ut obsides

bene factum est, ut ego opinor discipulus ut tu.
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Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

Postby MatthaeusLatinus » Sun May 13, 2012 11:13 pm

14. no such word, should be flumen
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