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Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Lex » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:29 am

Am I the only one here who thinks the Israelis are being sensible by trying to kill people who are trying to kill them?
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Interaxus » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:23 am

Lex:

So you mean: Weren't the Romans (54/55 BC) being sensible by trying to kill the Brits who were trying to kill them? Guess you're right.

Cheers,
Int
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby PeterD » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:16 am

Lex "Luther" wrote:Am I the only one here who thinks the Israelis are being sensible by trying to kill people who are trying to kill them?

Interaxus wrote:So you mean: Weren't the Romans (54/55 BC) being sensible by trying to kill the Brits who were trying to kill them? Guess you're right.


No, Interaxus. What Lex meant to say was a thousand eyes for an eye!

Palestinian casualties to date: near 5000

Israeli casualties to date: 4


I doubt the fact that Palestinians have suffered inhuman and brutal occupation, displacement, and dispossession for over 40 years---the explanation of why the Palestinians resist their oppressor---has ever crossed Lex's mind.



Ουΐλιαμ,

You said a lot in your last post. When I have the time I'll reply. Thank you.




Best,

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Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:26 am

This view is not only simplistic, it is ridiculous too. That are so many Gazan civilians victims, that one to blame is only Hamas. One reads all the time that all of Gaza is full of thousands of km of tunnels to smuggle weapons and rockets. Why they don't shelter their children there? It's not a matter of 4 vs. 50 000 deaths, but of terror vs. terror. To endure an eight years lasting terror was too much for the Israelis, and it doesn't matter that much how many deaths during those 8 years were counted.

It is a horrifying reality. Clearly the situation in Gaza is much worse than what we are experiencing, however I will share what we are going through so the complexity and absurdity can be understood.
On the Israeli side 1 million people are in the range of the rockets from Gaza. Many people have fled to safer areas in Israel. Most rockets are hitting in open areas, however some have injured civilians and lot's of damage has been caused to homes and buildings. People are in constant fear and alert.
The war has created chaos in most of the southern part of Israel. No school or university studies, people are not allowed to crowd which means no weddings and other gatherings are not allowed, many businesses are closed and people have not been to work for 2 weeks.
I have personally spent most of the time in Sderot however my wife and kids have been out of the area for the whole time. Today we are all together again at home. The rockets are still hitting, however it feels good to be back home even in face of danger. We have been in this reality for 8 years so for us it seems amazingly normal.
Today has been a rather quiet day in Sderot, Only rocket alerts, no one hurt and no damage.

It feels rather normal however as I type, I can clearly hear the sounds of war. Blasts and planes, shooting and helicopters. A horrible war so close across the border.
I am horrified by the number of civilian casualties in Gaza. The civilians are to suffer once again from the brutality and incompetence of their leaders and this time the result is worse than ever.

For 4.5 months from June to November 2008 we had a cease fire. Only a very small amount of hostile actions from both sides were occurring. Our life was back to a very quiet and normal reality. The main problem was that for the Gazen civilians, the cease fire did not create any hope since there was an ongoing siege on Gaza.
Both sides were blaming each other. Israel claming that the Hamas is not abiding to the ceasefire since there were occasional rockets and the arms smuggling continued, and Hamas claiming that Israel is not fulfilling its part since the siege continued.
This war has broken out for the simple reason that neither side was willing to make a serious effort to avoid it. Both sides were sharpening their swords waiting for the next horrible round.
Was there no other option? Of course there was!
Both sides state that on the other side there is no partner to talk to. However the initial cease fire was achieved by talks. Indirect talks but that is only a technicality.
We all know that sometime (hopefully very soon) there will be some kind of agreement and both sides will talk. We all know that this agreement will not disarm either side and remove the treat of future hostilities. However it will be reached. Why then did so many civilians have to pay such an appalling price for the stupidity and incompetence of our leaders? I am both furious, heartbroken to see how our region has fallen so deep into this tragedy which could have been avoided in the first place.


http://gaza-sderot.blogspot.com/2009/01 ... going.html
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:04 am

annis wrote:
Amadeus wrote:This is what, in my view, the Gazans voted for.


My understanding at the time was that mostly they were voting against the corrupt and incapable Fatah party.


Hamas accused Fatah of corruption, and especially that Yasser Arafat had billion of dollars in Switzerland. It has been proven that these accounts were of PLO, to finance their struggle. In their fights between each others there is nothing to be taken seriously. And knowing how public life and politics works in such areas (and cultures), one may say with certainty, Hamas is more corrupt and Fatah lost influence in centers of corruption, otherwise they wouldn't win the elections. Democracy works different here. Hamas accused Fatah for collaboration with the enemy and willing to sign a lasting peace. That last point was decisive to win the elections.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:16 am

A clear demonstration of insanity.
We are not saying we will stop firing rockets from the Gaza Strip to Israel - we are only talking about stopping the aggression from the Israelis against the civilian population in the Gaza Strip.

When others talk about a ceasefire, they are saying all military operations should stop.

But we are sending a message [by firing rockets]: "We will not surrender. We have to fight the Israelis and we will win this battle."

We know we are going to lose a lot of people from our side, but we are going to win, inshallah.


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl ... 11890.html
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:49 pm

As concerns the blockage of Gaza, it is not to blame only Israel, but Egypt even more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_breac ... ypt_border
Israel might have reasons to do this, they want Hamas to stop terrorist actions, but what reasons has Egypt to do this? Egypt can profit from this and make big business by selling food in high prizes.

The recent blockade on Gaza was primarily a blockade made by the Egyptian regimen. Some may protest to that notion but let me just ask those who protest one question: if Israel wants to block all traffic in-and-out of Gaza (which is an understandable argument), what drives the Egyptian regimen to honor and enforce that blockade on the Rafah border point?
As a matter of fact, if there were Israeli troops on the Egyptian side Rafah, they would not have done a better job in isolating Gaza!

My point of view is as follows. The Egyptian regimen is terrified from the Muslim brotherhood (Al E7’wan el moslemeen). And Hamas is considered by many to be a natural extension of the brotherhood. So the Egyptian regimen would rather Gaza be annihilated by Israel than to have a successful political model ran by Hamas in Gaza.

Every body is familiar with the principle of: ‘The enemy of my enemy is my friend’. But what is deeply disturbing in this story, is that the Egyptian regimen thinks of Hamas as a more dangerous enemy than Israel!

Of course this doesn’t mean that the Egyptian regimen is the only sinister political entity behind this atrocity. The 2nd significant power in this game, Saudi Arabia, is also a major player. The role of the Saudi regimen is the good old system of response that has been adopted right after King Faisal (may Allah bless his soul) was assassinated. That response is: obey Allah, but only as instructed by Washington.

As for the rest of the Arab nations, they are like dark matter; something that exists only in theory.



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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Lex » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:10 pm

Interaxus wrote:So you mean: Weren't the Romans (54/55 BC) being sensible by trying to kill the Brits who were trying to kill them? Guess you're right.


Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire until they made the foolish decision to side with the Kaiser in WWI. And oops, they lost. After that, Palestine belonged to the British, and the British gave it away, which they had every right to do. If some Palestinians need a new place to live, why don't they immigrate to other Islamic nations? Oh yeah, nevermind; with the exception of Jordan, no Islamic country will have them. That's how much other Muslims care about them. They think it more important that their anti-Israeli poster children don't go away.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Lex » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:58 pm

PeterD wrote:No, Interaxus. What Lex meant to say was a thousand eyes for an eye!


No, I said what I meant to say. But I'll add this; if one is smart, one doesn't negotiate with terrorists. One hunts them down and kills them. If they hide behind civilians like cowards, and some of those civilians get killed, that is on the heads of the terrorists. ****, last I heard they were hiding in a hospital! How spineless can you get?

PeterD wrote:I doubt the fact that Palestinians have suffered inhuman and brutal occupation, displacement, and dispossession for over 40 years---the explanation of why the Palestinians resist their oppressor---has ever crossed Lex's mind.


I doubt it has ever crossed your mind that there are about 1.5 million Palestinian Israeli citizens. They are descendants of the Palestinians who did not fight the occupation of the former Palestine by the Israelis. The ones who did try to fight were (quite sensibly) refused Israeli citizenship, became refugees, and were refused citizenship in most Islamic countries. And their descendants have also been refused citizenship in most Islamic countries, so that the Muslims have their anti-Israeli poster children to point to when all else fails. And suckers like you fall for it every stinkin' time.

A lot of people, here in the US and elsewhere, have this strange notion that all we have to do is appease the terrorists, and they'll leave us alone. And how should we appease them? Hand them Israel on a silver platter. Then all the bad men will leave us alone. It's ironic. We live in a mostly secular world now, and yet, even many of the secularists think that sacrificing Jews is the road to salvation.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Nooj » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Lex wrote:
Interaxus wrote:So you mean: Weren't the Romans (54/55 BC) being sensible by trying to kill the Brits who were trying to kill them? Guess you're right.


Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire until they made the foolish decision to side with the Kaiser in WWI. And oops, they lost. After that, Palestine belonged to the British, and the British gave it away, which they had every right to do. If some Palestinians need a new place to live, why don't they immigrate to other Islamic nations? Oh yeah, nevermind; with the exception of Jordan, no Islamic country will have them. That's how much other Muslims care about them. They think it more important that their anti-Israeli poster children don't go away.
While it's true that the governments of the surrounding Arab countries don't care about the Palestinians, that's not really true for a large number of Arab citizens. And the Palestinians don't need a new place to live, they need (some of) their old places back.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Amadeus » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:38 pm

Lex wrote:[Palestine belonged to the British, and the British gave it away, which they had every right to do.


The British did not have "every" right to give Palestine away (=expel the native Palestinian population). That's like saying the Nazis had "every" right to deport and imprison thousands of Jews just because they were inside German territory. Perhaps there is a legal right here (and I'm not sure there is), but no moral right, never.

why don't they immigrate to other Islamic nations?


Because Palestine is their homeland too? Also, if no other country will have them (except Jordan), that's not the Arabs' fault, but the Israelis', since they were the ones who forced them out.

No, I said what I meant to say.


Perhaps Interaxus' and PeterD's objection to your comment is the use of the word "sensible". How can the Israelis' killing of 900+ Palestinians pro 4 Israelis dead be called "sensible"? Is Jewish blood more precious than Arab?

If they hide behind civilians like cowards, and some of those civilians get killed, that is on the heads of the terrorists.


That's a pretty lame excuse. "Oh, it's the terrorists fault". Bomb houses, schools and hospitals (not to mention UN buildings and Red Cross ambulances) with innocent civilians inside and blame it on the terrorists. I'm sure Israel will gain much sympathy from its neighbors because it's doing "the sensible thing".

Lex wrote:The ones who did try to fight were (quite sensibly) refused Israeli citizenship, became refugees, and were refused citizenship in most Islamic countries.


Again, it's not the Palestinian's fault. They fought, as you rightly put it, an occupation, and they lost. Somehow that justifies their mass expulsion? Imagine the resistance in France and Poland loosing to the Nazis, and as retaliation for such "insubordination" the mass expulsion of French and Polish. Would you still say that was a "sensible" thing for the Nazis to do?

A lot of people, here in the US and elsewhere, have this strange notion that all we have to do is appease the terrorists, and they'll leave us alone. And how should we appease them? Hand them Israel on a silver platter.


You sure know how to pick the words. No one here is attempting to "appease" the terrorists. No one here is conceding anything to terrorists. We are all smart people, who know that Israel is not going anywhere (at least in the near future). What those of us who object to Israel's occupation and brutal war tactics are demanding is what the whole world has been asking for, namely, the Israeli's withdrawal to pre-1967 borders and the creation of a Palestinian State. That is not a terrorist demand. That is what the U.N. demands. Will that "appease" the extremists, probably not. But appeasement is not the goal here, but, rather, what is just.
Last edited by Amadeus on Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby bedwere » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:02 pm

My 2 cents: neither Israel nor Hamas is innocent but the US government should stop funneling money to Israel so that they may buy expensive weaponry from American firms. No wonder the Arab world hates us! But the pro-Israel lobby will never accept that. A word of advice to the liberals: don't put your hopes of peace in Obama: his chief of staff Rham Emanuel is a hawk and Obama himself is breaking bread with the neo-conservatives
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby PeterD » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:14 pm

Very quickly, as I only have a few minutes...

Amadeus wrote:
PeterD wrote:The ones who did try to fight were (quite sensibly) refused Israeli citizenship, became refugees, and were refused citizenship in most Islamic countries.




Lex wrote the above, Amadeus, not I.


bedwee wrote:A word of advice to the liberals: don't put your hopes of peace in Obama: his chief of staff Rham Emanuel is a hawk and Obama himself is breaking bread with the neo-conservatives.


Indeed, Bedwere. Rham Emanuel is a super pro-Israeli hawk. His father was in Menachem Begin's fascist group Irgun.


I'll post later.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Amadeus » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:59 pm

PeterD wrote:Lex wrote the above, Amadeus, not I.


Oops. I seem to have selected the wrong quote. But it's fixed now. :oops: :P
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:19 pm

why don't they immigrate to other Islamic nations?

Because Palestine is their homeland too? Also, if no other country will have them (except Jordan), that's not the Arabs' fault, but the Israelis', since they were the ones who forced them out.

No, Jordan will be the first one to reject them. One writes here something and no one is reading it, you stick to your propaganda like kids. Annis wrote, I will repeat. Jordan had a very traumatic experience with them; they won't go through this nightmare again. Egypt got last minute saved from the same experience (by Israel!); Lebanon is still struggling to survive from civil war.



If they hide behind civilians like cowards, and some of those civilians get killed, that is on the heads of the terrorists.

That's a pretty lame excuse. "Oh, it's the terrorists fault". Bomb houses, schools and hospitals (not to mention UN buildings and Red Cross ambulances) with innocent civilians inside and blame it on the terrorists. I'm sure Israel will gain much sympathy from its neighbors because it's doing "the sensible thing".

It is the reality. Swallow it. Their main centre of operations is in a bunker, underneath the general Hospital. They fire rockets from schools, the neighbourhoods, even from the yards of UN buildings, and move on to the next school, neighbourhood. Israelis send messages via cell phones to evacuated the area (especially from the babies!), do you know any military that betrays its strategy? They do.

The ones who did try to fight were (quite sensibly) refused Israeli citizenship, became refugees, and were refused citizenship in most Islamic countries.

Again, it's not the Palestinian's fault. They fought, as you rightly put it, an occupation, and they lost.
They fought an “occupation”? Do you know how all this started? The “occupation” is the result of wars, they didn’t fight an occupation at the beginning. Except if you mean the British, but they were welcomed as liberators.

hat those of us who object to Israel's occupation and brutal war tactics are demanding is what the whole world has been asking for, namely, the Israeli's withdrawal to pre-1967 borders and the creation of a Palestinian State. That is not a terrorist demand. That is what the U.N. demands. Will that "appease" the extremists, probably not. But appeasement is not the goal here, but, rather, what is just.

The main core of UN resolutions were always “land for peace”. Israel accepted it from beginning, proved it also in the praxis with Egypt, but the other side never accepted it. The Palestinians from the very beginning rejected the second part of the sentence, namely the word “peace”. Israel is willing to give land (anyway, most land is useless desert), is the other part willing to give peace?
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Amadeus » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:23 pm

I'm done with you, Thomas. It's useless.
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:28 pm

The stop repeating nonsense and use more of your brain.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Amadeus » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:46 pm

ThomasGR wrote:The stop repeating nonsense and use more of your brain.


Really, it's like talking to a brick wall. :roll:
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:00 am

How can the Israelis' killing of 900+ Palestinians pro 4 Israelis dead be called "sensible"? Is Jewish blood more precious than Arab?

But if the score was 4 : 4, than things would be OK and nothing to blame. Do you all think this is a kind of soccer game? Swallow it, so hot it is: it is terror : terror.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby PeterD » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:34 pm

William wrote:No, I did not mean Palestinians. Nor did I mean just this conflict. I mean what I said — lots of people, people all over the place.

Fine, William. But this thread is about the crisis in Gaza. If you'd like to discuss another world conflict, feel free to start a new thread. I'd be more than glad to participate in the discussion.

William wrote:The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been a festering wound in the region since before I was born (almost 40 years ago, now).

And your country is responsible for this "festering wound"--- 40 years of unwavering support for hard-line, extremist Israeli government policies.

There cannot be peace, William, when Israel---WITH FULL BACKING OF THE U.S.---refuses to meet even the most basic demands of the Palestinian people:

    1. A viable Palestinian state, not the bullshit "generous offer" that Israel proposed in Camp David in 2002; that is, a little more than 2/3 of the Occupied Territories carved into separated cantons reminiscent of the "Batustans" of the now-defunct apartheid state of South Africa. A bullshit "generous offer" that would have allowed Israel to control the land, air and sea borders; the natural resources (i.e., water!); immigration... you get the idea, William.

    2. Recognition of the right of return or compensation for the millions of Palestinian refugees.

    3. A halt to the continuous expansion of the illegal (under international law) settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

    4. A return to the pre-1967 borders which is supported by the majority of the world, including all the Arab states and even---yes!!!---Hamas.


Unfortunately, most Americans have no clue of what I just wrote above and continue to believe in the "generous offer" myth.


William wrote:Neighboring countries are in constant danger of chaos: Jordan was terrorized by PLO would-be warlords in the 60s; Lebanon, with enough problems of its own, has to contend both with Palestinian organizations but is endlessly interfered with by Iran, generally by way of Syria;

You are reversing cause and effect. This "constant danger of chaos" is mostly, certainly not all,---for example, the assassination of the Prime Minister of Iran Mohammed Mosaddeq had to do with British imperial interference---a direct result of the creation of the for-Jews-only Israeli state in 1948---a state created based on some Old Testament biblical fable.

The great American writer Isaac Asimov opposed Zionism. He thought it foolish to create a Jewish-only state in a land already inhabited by other people. A foolish act that would forever incur the enmity of all Arabs.


William wrote:Israel lives under constant threat of terrorism or invasion,


Invasion?

By whom?

Aliens?

Israel has the 4th largest military in the world, after the United States, Russia, and China. It has hundreds of "nu-cu-lar" weapons. It has chemical weapons. It has biological weapons. It has space technology. In short, it has weapons of mass destruction.

It also has the full support of the LARGEST military power---by far!---in the world, the United States.

Notwithstanding an alien invasion a la "War of the Worlds," Israel has no more chance of being invaded than I have of going 48 hours without sex.

(Note: For those hardworking Americans who may not know, Israel recently signed a 10-year, $30,000,000,000 plus U.S. (military) aid agreement.)


William wrote:...and its allies become targets, too

Do you mean the Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Nauru, and Palau are targets, too?


William wrote:You misunderstand my question. Reciting the wording of a toothless resolution by a slowly dying body with little genuine authority is not a plan of action — just more damn words.

The U.N. and other world bodies, such as the World Court, are "toothless," because the United States for many decades has either blocked them or just simply ignored them. Your country, for example, is by far the leader in Security Council resolution vetoes. It even vetoed a Security Council resolution calling for all states to comply with international law!

Nevertheless, William, "toothless" or not, the United Nations General Assembly represents "the international community." It has been voting for the peaceful resolution of the Palestinian question since 1989. And every year this "international community" has overwhelmingly voted the same; namely, a two-state settlement based on the pre-1967 borders, including a just solution to the Palestinian refugees to be resolved between both parties.

The world has decided. Unfortunately, the United States, at the behest of the powerful American pro-Israel lobbies, ignores it.

William wrote:Here's the International Red Cross: http://www.icrc.org/eng — go give them money. They're trying to help the Palestinian civilians being brutalized by this disaster. Find a politician to harass into action (if one can be found who'll listen to someone other than the paymasters). There are plenty organizations in Israel interested in a just peace for themselves and the Palestinians. Find one and find some way to help


Excuse me, William, but in case you didn't know, Gaza has been under Israeli military blockade for nearly two years, despite the ceasefire agreement which called for a lifting of the blockade:

"Gaza Residents 'Terribly Trapped'."

A former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mary Robinson, has told the BBC she was taken aback by the "terrible" conditions in Gaza on a recent visit. Mrs Robinson said it was "almost unbelievable" that the world did not care about what she called "a shocking violation of so many human rights" ... Israel tightened a blockade on Gaza after Hamas took control there in 2007 ... "Their whole civilisation has been destroyed, I'm not exaggerating," said Mrs Robinson.
---BBC News, Nov. 4, 2008.



International aid agencies, including the International Committee of the Red Cross, have said virtually no medical supplies were reaching Gaza. ---Haaretz Israel News, Nov. 9, 2008



"UN Warned Over Gaza Food Blockade."

The UN in the Gaza Strip says it will run out of food aid in two days unle Israel's blockade - which it describes as "shameful and unacceptable" - eases. The UN refugee agency UNWRA, which distributes food to half of Gaza's 1.5m people, called the blockade "a physical as well as a mental punishment".
---BBC News, Nov. 11, 2008


And any aid---FOOD, MEDICINE, FUEL--- that has been allowed to trickle into Gaza by the Israeli military in recent days has JUST BEEN DESTROYED BY THE SAME ISRAELI MILITARY!!!

U.N. Relief Agency's Gaza City Complex on Fire

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon condemned an attack on a U.N. relief agency's compound in Gaza City Thursday, which he and other U.N. officials say was committed by Israeli forces.
---CNN News, Jan 16, 2009



William wrote:This disaster has been going on for more than 50 years; the same arguments are churned over for 50 years; the same venting for 50 years. How much longer can all this talking decently go on while people are being brutalized?


Indeed, "how much longer." Millions of Palestinian refugees have been asking the same question---"for more than 50 years"!



best,

~PeterD
Last edited by PeterD on Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby annis » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:47 pm

PeterD wrote:Fine, William. But this thread is about the crisis in Gaza.


My, my. You do like to talk, don't you?

My numero uno, fundamental question remains — what are you doing to mitigate what's going on and what do you want me to do? What service — apart from yet more jibber-jabber — can we render to Justice? If you cannot answer that question I have no time for you on this issue.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:43 pm

4. A return to the pre-1967 borders which is supported by the majority of the world, including all the Arab states and even---yes!!!---Hamas.


William wrote:Israel lives under constant threat of terrorism or invasion,



Invasion?

By whom?

Aliens?


WOW, impressing. I am completely speechless.
You are the most ignorant person in the whole Internet. Believe me, that's the only truth.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby PeterD » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:42 pm

ThomasGR wrote:
PeterD wrote:4. A return to the pre-1967 borders which is supported by the majority of the world, including all the Arab states and even---yes!!!---Hamas.



William wrote:Israel lives under constant threat of terrorism or invasion,




PeterD wrote:Invasion?

By whom?

Aliens?

WOW, impressing. I am completely speechless.

You should be: Israel being the 4th largest military power in the world.

But I was "completely speechless," too, TG, when I learned that, in addition to Israel's massive conventional military machine and nuclear arsenal, the United States shared military space technology with them.

ThomasGR wrote:You are the most ignorant person in the whole Internet. Believe me, that's the only truth.

Class act.


best,

~PeterD

p.s. Please excuse my tardiness in replying. I have been very busy of late what with work, studies, and everything else. But I will have time later this evening. I'd like very much to answer some "points" Lex and ThomasGR made, and, of course, answer William's question (at the risk of "talking too much").
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:40 pm

You should be: Israel being the 4th largest military power in the world.

Says who, and what's the methology. One needs two seconds to debunk that nonsense. Let’s start for the moment by asking, what reasons they have.
United States shared military space technology with them.

Says who. Do you know how all that story with American help started? The same old myth is repeating. Hang around this site
http://www.sandmonkey.org/
you might learn something, especially from the comments. There are chances you’ll stop ranting. Otherwise stick to your work and studies, you have no clue what’s going on.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby PeterD » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:15 am

ThomasGR moments:
ThomasGR on Jan 13 wrote: One reads all the time that all of Gaza is full of thousands of km of tunnels to smuggle weapons and rockets. Why they don't shelter their children there?

The tunnels, were built to counter Israel's illegal 2-year blockade of Gaza. Nothing was getting in---no food, no medicine, no nothing! The Palestinians were near starvation. I am not exagerating... and neither was Mary Robinson the former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights who told the BBC after a visit to Gaza last year, ""Their whole civilisation has been destroyed, I'm not exaggerating." Sure, they also smuggled light weapons and probably antitank rockets, too. And...?

First, the tunnels were built, as I've mentioned above, to bring in much needed supplies not to shelter civilians. Second, the Israeli air force destroyed most if not all these tunnesls. Anyone foolish enough to shelter in the tunnels would have been instantly incinerated. Moreover, even if they were reinforced with concrete, it would have made not one bit of difference: it would still be suicidal. Israel has bunker buster bombs, the kind that can penetrate up to 12 feet or more right through reinforced concrete before exploding.

Now you know, TG.

No, the Palestinians chose to shelter their young and old in UN buildings, instead. Unfortunately, the apartheid state of Israel, being the criminal terrorist state that it is, in addition to bombing places of worship, schools, ambulances, hospitals, food depots,---ALL DOCUMENTED---also bombed the UN compounds:

"In the deadliest single attack on Gaza civilians since the war began, Israel fired three mortar shells at the United Nations' al-Fahoura school in the Jabalya refugee camp. The school was filled with civilians who had been forced from their homes by the Israeli invasion, and the attack killed at least 46. The United Nations reports that at least 55 other civilians were wounded in the attack.

“The United Nations says the building was clearly marked with UN flags and that they were in contact with the Israeli military when the war began to inform them of the location of the school precisely to prevent it being targeted.

“Indeed, the Israeli military does not seem to deny that they deliberately targeted a building they knew to be filled with hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians. Instead they claim that Hamas militants were using the school as a base of operations."
---Antiwar.com, Jan. 6, 2009.

The Israeli claim that Hamas fighters "were using the school as a base of operations" is completely baseless. The justification was made for American consumption---i.e., for those Americans foolish and gullible enough to swallow anything the Israeli propaganda machine throws their way. (Note: Israel no longer claims that the school was used by Hamas fighters.)

To those apologists of Israeli war crimes who still have the nerve to state that Israel does not willfully target civilians, here are the chilling remarks, as summarized by Israeli military analyst Ze'ev Schiff, of IDF Chief of Staff Mordechai Gur in an interview he gave to the Israeli press after the 1978 invasion of Lebanon [1]:

"In South Lebanon we struck the civilian population consciously, because they deserved it . . . the importance of Gur's remarks is the admission that the Israeli Army has always struck civilian populations, porposely and consciously . . . the Army, he said, has never distinguished civilian [from military] targets . . . [but] purposely attacked civilian targets even when Israeli settlements had not been struck."

ALWAYS!

ThomasGR wrote:Hamas accused Fatah of corruption, and especially that Yasser Arafat had billion of dollars in Switzerland. It has been proven that these accounts were of PLO, to finance their struggle. In their fights between each others there is nothing to be taken seriously. And knowing how public life and politics works in such areas (and cultures), one may say with certainty, Hamas is more corrupt and Fatah lost influence in centers of corruption, otherwise they wouldn't win the elections. Democracy works different here. Hamas accused Fatah for collaboration with the enemy and willing to sign a lasting peace. That last point was decisive to win the elections.


Notwithstanding the endemic corruption of Fatah, the Palestinian people elected Hamas because they finally realized that peaceful negotiations with Israel not only don't work, they actually make matters worse, as they witnessed on a daily basis the rapid expansion of illegal settlements in the Occupied Territories. So, they chose armed resistance.

It's really not rocket science, TG.


ThomasGR, vying for the positon of Israeli Minister of Propaganda, wrote:It's not a matter of 4 vs. 50 000 deaths, but of terror vs. terror. To endure an eight years lasting terror was too much for the Israelis, and it doesn't matter that much how many deaths during those 8 years were counted.

Joseph Goebbels---err, I meant TG---like a good propagandist, has sought to focus on the terror "endured"---less than two dozen deaths---over the last eight years by Israelis. He dares not focus on the 41 years of terror, humiliation, and suffering brought about by Israeli military occupation---a brutal occupation which in the same eight-year period killed more than 3,500 Palestinians in Gaza, mostly civilians, according to human rights groups.

No, for the propagandist, like his Nazi predecessor before him, it's neither about "4 vs. 50 000 deaths," nor the oppressed vs. the oppressor, but rather of "terror vs. terror."

Well done, TG.

ThomasGR wrote:The main core of UN resolutions were always “land for peace”. Israel accepted it from beginning, proved it also in the praxis with Egypt, but the other side never accepted it. The Palestinians from the very beginning rejected the second part of the sentence, namely the word “peace”. Israel is willing to give land (anyway, most land is useless desert), is the other part willing to give peace?

I am going to dignify this outrageous comment above with only one word: Ha!


Best,

PeterD


[1] The Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel & The Palestinians Noam Chomsky
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:57 pm

I am going to dignify this outrageous comment above with only one word: Ha!


Stick to the core: (1) "Israel's right to exist" (2) "Land for peace" (3) peace agreements. There is no Arab country that follows these principle, and Hamas less of all. That's the only reason why all the people do die there. You are incurable ignorant. Your nonsensical insults and rantings doesn't help either. You may wish this region to become a hide-hole for Al-qaeda (and other branches of terrorist organizations) and a breeding place for future more terrorists to come, but that's not my cup. You are left alone to throw more insults and rantings, I am out from this thread.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Amadeus » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:16 pm

ThomasGR wrote:Your nonsensical insults and rantings doesn't help either. ... You are left alone to throw more insults and rantings, I am out from this thread.


:lol:

How ironic, I left this thread because of your nonsensical insults and rantings!

Forget it, PeterD. I don't think anyone is listening (or reading). Those who were, were not prepared to engage in polite dialogue, preferring to cling to their "all or nothing" preconceptions about this issue. (There should be rules against such fruitless discourse, but, well this is the Internet...)
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:38 pm

Now speaks the one who has thrown the ever first stone. Sheessshhh
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby PeterD » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:44 am

Lex on Jan 13 wrote:I doubt it has ever crossed your mind that there are about 1.5 million Palestinian Israeli citizens.

Not lately, Lex, but I do know that they constitute roughly 20% of the population of Israel.

I do know also that they're treated as second-class citizens, and their few representatives in the Knesset treated as pariahs.

By the way, what do you think crossed the minds of these second-class citizens when Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni vomited these horrific remarks to students at a Tel Aviv high school, as reported by IDF Radio on Dec. 11, 2008?

"Once a Palestinian state is established, I can come to the Palestinian citizens, whom we call Israeli Arabs, and say to them 'you are citizens with equal rights, but the national solution for you is elsewhere."

Horror?


Lex wrote:They are descendants of the Palestinians who did not fight the occupation of the former Palestine by the Israelis.

?

Was this a Freudian slip?

Lex wrote:A lot of people, here in the US and elsewhere, have this strange notion that all we have to do is appease the terrorists, and they'll leave us alone. And how should we appease them? Hand them Israel on a silver platter. Then all the bad men will leave us alone. It's ironic. We live in a mostly secular world now, and yet, even many of the secularists think that sacrificing Jews is the road to salvation.

No, Lex---no need to "sacrifice" Jews. What the Palestinians need, as Nooj so succinctly put it, is "(some of) their old places back."


Best,

~PeterD
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:13 am

It's useless to talk to ignorants, but when I said the Arabs deliberately pushed their kids and women to the fire, I knew something unbelevable horrible:

When during the past year Hamas leaders talked proudly of making "death an industry of the Palestinian people" and creating "human shields" composed of old people and children, or declared Jewish children everywhere to have become legitimate targets of murder (as did Hamas commander Mahmoud Zahar in a televised broadcast on January 5), the movement helped normalise the intensifying siege on Gaza, playing into deep-seated Western - and particularly American and Israeli - stereotypes of Muslim irrationality and brutality.

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_ ... 42367.html


These are some extracts of the televised boradcasts mentioned above:

Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg

Hamas admits it uses human shields
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9 ... re=related

Human Shields - Hamas in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q ... re=related

Of course, as expected, the other side picks up those broadcastings and is using these videos for their own purposes. In soccer game we have a quite characteristic name for this. It's not Israelis' fault that the Arabs are stupid. Stupidity is to blame this all to translators' incapability.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Interaxus » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:22 pm

Pre-inaugural Gaza scrapbook ...

First an article:

An former insider’s view (‘an eye for an eyelash’):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... -palestine

Then some images:

White phosphorus (don’t miss the second video clip):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... phosphorus

Guardian cartoonist Steve Bell comments the ban on foreign journalists:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/cartoon ... -bell-gaza

What the journalists weren't allowed to see happening at the time:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery ... =341995148

Cheers,
Int
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby PeterD » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:33 am

ThomasGR wrote:
PeterD wrote:You should be: Israel being the 4th largest military power in the world.


Says who, and what's the methology. One needs two seconds to debunk that nonsense.

Go ahead: "debunk that nonsense." Take all the time you need. But please don't refer us to some silly website that ranks Italy (no offense to Italy) ahead of Israel. Please.

κατάλαβες; "κατάλαβα" να λες.


ThomasGR wrote:Stick to the core: (1) "Israel's right to exist" (2) "Land for peace" (3) peace agreements.

Fine.

Israel's right to exist

Israel exists. If you don't believe me, just ask the nearly 1,400 dead Palestinians of Gaza if Israel exists or not. Oh, I forgot---the dead can't talk!

Israel's "right" to exist is another matter. Asking Palestinians to recognize "Israel's right to exist" is the same as asking them to accept Israel's crimes of ethnic cleansing and occupation. Sorry, but it's not going to happen. Does the Republic of Cyprus recognize the pseudo-Republic of Northern Cyprus's right to exist, i.e., occupation and separation? I didn't think so.

"Existence" Yes. "Right to exist" as an apartheid occupation state? Definitely not!

Land for Peace

What nonsense are you talking about? Illegal---ILLEGAL UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW!!!---settlements have gobbled up nearly half the land of the West Bank, including the precious water resources, leaving the Palestinians encircled in discontiguous cantons.

Peace Agreements

You live in Greece, don't you? Well, then, wake up and taste the feta cheese: Israel does not want peace---not under terms that require a just compromise (as Amadeus astutely noted) by both parties.

ThomasGR wrote:There is no Arab country that follows these principle, and Hamas less of all. That's the only reason why all the people do die there.

No Arab country?

The ARAB LEAGUE, composed of...

Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Morocco, Tunisia, Kuwait, Algeria, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, Mauritania, Somalia, Djibouti, Comoros, Eritrea, including the Palestinian Authority (and so does Hamas)...

UNANIMOUSLY supported in 2002 a settlement of the Israel-Palestine confllict that called for a two-state solution based on the pre-1967 borders, a just solution to the refugee question based on international law, and full diplomatic relations with Israel.

You should keep abreast of the news, TG.

ThomasGR wrote:You are incurable ignorant. Your nonsensical insults and rantings doesn't help either.

Thank you, Ollie. Coming from you, it's compliment.

ThomasGR wrote:You are left alone to throw more insults and rantings, I am out from this thread.

You'll be back.

Less than 5 hours later, TG, in reply to Amadeus, wrote:Now speaks the one who has thrown the ever first stone. Sheessshhh

Welcome back, TG.

And for what, this?

ThomasGR wrote:It's useless to talk to ignorants, but when I said the Arabs deliberately pushed their kids and women to the fire, I knew something unbelevable horrible...

A buffoon and a racist, too. :(



best,

~PeterD
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:50 am

Rubbish. Rantings of a completely ignorant.

I'll comment only on the Cyprus issue. A parallel story like the one in Palestine. Hadn't they wanted to exterminate all the Turks from the island, physically and bodily by killing all Turks, but instead had they recognized to the Turks the right to exist, thinks would take other courses. Now they are mourning all the time, like women use to do, that the whole world is so injustice and does not give them the right to exterminate all Turks (and to help them as well to get through this god-blessed mission). I'll puke.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby PeterD » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:27 am

ThomasGR wrote:Rubbish. Rantings of a completely ignorant.

I thought you'd like the "ranting" about the Arab League. Must have sent your small head into a swirl, eh?

ThomasGR wrote:I'll comment only on the Cyprus issue. A parallel story like the one in Palestine. Hadn't they wanted to exterminate all the Turks from the island, physically and bodily by killing all Turks, but instead had they recognized to the Turks the right to exist, thinks would take other courses.

Your buffoonery has yet to be plumbed.


ThomasGR wrote:I'll puke.

You promise? :)

κορόιδο... ε, κορόιδο.



best,

~PeterD


PS
PeterD wrote:
ThomasGR wrote:
PeterD wrote:You should be: Israel being the 4th largest military power in the world.


Says who, and what's the methology. One needs two seconds to debunk that nonsense.

Go ahead: "debunk that nonsense." Take all the time you need. But please don't refer us to some silly website that ranks Italy (no offense to Italy) ahead of Israel. Please.


Like I said, take all the time you need, Thomas "one-needs-two-seconds-to-debunk-that-nonsense" GR.
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby annis » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:35 pm

As entertaining as this thread has become, I have to wonder if it hasn't outlived its productive life.

I might, at some time in the near future, lock it anyway, to avoid the drive-by posting syndrome this topic tends to attract.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby PeterD » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:22 pm

annis wrote:As entertaining as this thread has become, I have to wonder if it hasn't outlived its productive life.

I might, at some time in the near future, lock it anyway, to avoid the drive-by posting syndrome this topic tends to attract.

Why censor a very important and informative thread? Except for that racist buffoon ThomasGR--- " but when I said the Arabs deliberately pushed their kids and women to the fire, I knew something unbelevable horrible..."---noone is complaining (look at this thread's "Views"---over 1,3000---compared to the others in the Open Board). I am sorry if your current snoozer thread on this board---"What's everyone reading?"---isn't attracting the same interest as this thread. What can I say---try harder next time.

As for the entertainment value of this thread, we have the racist buffoon ThomasGr to thank for that. (Mind you I still get a giggle when I think of this gem: "Israel lives under constant threat of terrorism or invasion." What a beauty!) Tell me, William, putting ThomasGR's buffoonery aside (that's not important), were you shocked to learn as I was that this guy is as racist as they come? Give this racist a few more posts and he'll start reminiscing of the good 'ol days of apartheid South Africa.

William wrote:My numero uno, fundamental question remains — what are you doing to mitigate what's going on and what do you want me to do? What service — apart from yet more jibber-jabber — can we render to Justice? If you cannot answer that question I have no time for you on this issue.

To be polite (I'm really trying), William, I've--- I mean YOU---have already answered your question "What service can we render justice?". (Still confused? You won't be for long. Read on.)

Q: What service can we render Justice?

A: We render justice by abiding by the decision of the International Court of Justice, i.e., the World Court, which rendered a few years ago an advisory opininion on the Israel-Palestine question. It stated in no uncertain terms, based on Article 49 of the Geneva Conventions and U.N Resolutions,

    that the acquisition of territory through war is illegal,

    that the transfer of populations to occupied territories is illegal.

Hence, under international law, the Occupied Territories---i.e,the West Bank , including East Jerusalem, and Gaza---belong to the Palestinians because these territories were aquired by war (1967 war). The Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are also illegal because it's illegal for an occupying power to transfer its population onto territory acquired by war.

Nothing complex here... The highest judicial body in the world has ruled. The international community overwhelmingly agrees with the decision. The problem is your government, William. It refuses to acknowledge the authority of the World Court, including the international community's opinion on the matter. If you ask me, William, that's the definition of a rogue state.

Justice has been rendered. Question is, how do we get a rogue state like the United States to go along?

If you still want to censor this thread, go ahead. Just like the Israeli military barred the world's press from entering Gaza, you, too, can bar us from this thread.


best,

Peter


PS See, Amadeus, it's not complex.

PPS How do like that "jibber-jabber," William?
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby ThomasGR » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:24 pm

" but when I said the Arabs deliberately pushed their kids and women to the fire, I knew something unbelevable horrible..."

Swallow it.

"Israel lives under constant threat of terrorism or invasion."

That too. (Although, this is not mine. But, nonetheless, fact is fact.) Swallow it.

You are not only completely ignorant, you are also completely stupid. Hehehe
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby Lex » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:09 pm

It [the US government] refuses to acknowledge the authority of the World Court, including the international community's opinion on the matter. If you ask me, William, that's the definition of a rogue state.


If you ask me, that's the US of A (and Israel) affirming their own sovereignty. The World Court and the UN don't rule the world. Yet.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby annis » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:45 pm

PeterD wrote:Why censor a very important and informative thread?


Censor? Who said anything about censor? My post has two different though related matters.

First, Textkit has not, I have to say, really been covered by honor in this thread. Certainly ThomasGR's open racism is an ugly turn, but the increasingly direct and personal attacks aren't much help either, to say nothing of your own patronizing sexism a few pages back. Perhaps we can all pause a moment and commune with their better angels before hitting "Submit."

Second, there are a few threads spread across the forum which attract drive-by posting. The most notorious is in the Koine board, but there are a few others. Somehow people who have no interest in learning Greek or Latin find this board, and join only to dump on us whatever it is they have to say about the topic. They bring nothing to the larger purpose of Textkit. We're not USENET. When this thread settles down into silence I'll probably lock it to keep it from becoming such an attractant.
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Re: Some Thoughts to the Gaza Crisis

Postby annis » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:02 am

PeterD wrote:Q: What service can we render Justice?

A: We render justice by abiding by the decision of the International Court of Justice, i.e., the World Court, which rendered a few years ago an advisory opininion on the Israel-Palestine question. It stated in no uncertain terms, based on Article 49 of the Geneva Conventions and U.N Resolutions,


It does not seem to me that the question I am trying to get answered should be that difficult to communicate. Yet every time I pose it it flows off your back, and you go on to talk more.

PPS How do like that "jibber-jabber," William?


Still completely useless. Let me try one more time.

Imagine, for the sake of argument, that I agree with you 100%. Not only that, but imagine that I have complete control of all the information you've been reciting to us, that I know the resolutions of various international bodies by heart, that I can give you the exact number of households cut off from electrical service in the 2006 Israeli bombing of Gaza's main power plant, etc., etc., that, in effect, I have a library in my head of the entire history of this conflict.

But I'm not a powerful person. I cannot command the President of the US, nor the congress, beyond the effect of my single vote. I am not famous and do not have legions of fans to instruct and command. I am not wealthy enough to buy a single senator, much less a president, nor meaningful ad space in the NY Times. I do not rule some other country powerful enough to enforce UN resolutions. I'm just a random guy with bookish habits.

Imagine, for the sake of argument, that I — being this random guy who agrees with you and can lay out in extensive detail why — come to you and say, "what should we do?" And you answer by reciting information I already know. I say, "how can we help?" You recite a UN resolution. This is useless. Why are you telling me what I already know, often arguments that have been chewed up and regurgitated endlessly for decades? What does one do to ameliorate the situation?

If all you can do is recite atrocities and UN resolutions, if you have no action to recommend, why should I regard you any more kindly than I do a politician who struts around puffed up telling us, "I am forrrr good things! I am againnnnsst bad things!" but who never does anything?

It's easy to moralize. It's meaningless without acts to go with it.
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