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Georgia-Russia Crisis

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Georgia-Russia Crisis

Postby yee0890 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:55 pm

What should be done about it? More specifically, should US gov't get involved and help Georgia? US already sent Georgia troops back to their country (from Iraq) so I think US has some intention to help out but not too much so as to disturb the relation with Russia further.
What surprises me is that there still exist countries that try to invade others for political/economical reasons.
Oh and also, should UN be held responsible in dealing with the crisis?
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Re: Georgia-Russia Crisis

Postby Deses » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:58 pm

yee0890 wrote:What surprises me is that there still exist countries that try to invade others for political/economical reasons.


It must also surprise you that on the first day of the Olympics a democratically elected leader can order a major military operation against what he considers to be his own citizens, and yet somehow manage to remain everybody's darling.
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Postby PeterD » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:37 am

What should be done about it? More specifically, should US gov't get involved and help Georgia?

Asking the US to help Georgia is like asking Tony Soprano to help another mafioso.

From what I've read, Russia suspected Georgia of having WMD's and having links to international terrorist groups. :wink:

For the record: The Georgian army was trained by Israel---that's right, the same Israel that was humiliated a few years ago in Lebanon. This would explain Georgia's "brilliant" performance on the battlefield. Bloody, stupid Georgian cowards!
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Re: Georgia-Russia Crisis

Postby Amadeus » Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:24 pm

yee0890 wrote:What should be done about it? More specifically, should US gov't get involved and help Georgia?


The U.S. should stay neutral and get off Russia's face. :?
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Re: Georgia-Russia Crisis

Postby bedwere » Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:39 pm

Amadeus wrote:
yee0890 wrote:What should be done about it? More specifically, should US gov't get involved and help Georgia?


The U.S. should stay neutral and get off Russia's face. :?

Amen!
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Re: Georgia-Russia Crisis

Postby Bert » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:25 pm

Amadeus wrote:
yee0890 wrote:What should be done about it? More specifically, should US gov't get involved and help Georgia?


The U.S. should stay neutral and get off Russia's face. :?

Funny you had no comment to the effect that Russia should get off Georgia's face.
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Postby edonnelly » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:33 pm

PeterD: We miss you!!! Don't you know we've got an election coming up down here? We need you back.
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Re: Georgia-Russia Crisis

Postby Amadeus » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:50 pm

Bert wrote:Funny you had no comment to the effect that Russia should get off Georgia's face.


Uh... because the original poster asked about what the U.S. should do?
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Re: Georgia-Russia Crisis

Postby annis » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:29 pm

Amadeus wrote:The U.S. should stay neutral and get off Russia's face.


Should? When the Great Powers throw their weight around such trivial matters as morality get packed off someplace out of sight. Of course, the various parties will produce tissues of nonsense as excuses for nationalistic goons to howl about, but we all know what happens to the truth in a war.

I think we can safely say, though, that the role of the U.S. in this will be minimal or non-existent. It is too busy in its own wars for military action, and whatever political or moral clout it might once have wielded has been sapped away by the manifestly corrupt and incompetent farrago in Iraq.

I imagine life is going to be very interesting, in the worst sense of that word, in the former Soviet colonies in the next few years. I hope EU countries have good plans to wean themselves from Russian oil.
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Re: Georgia-Russia Crisis

Postby aloimonon » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:38 pm

yee0890 wrote:What should be done about it?

Stop prodding the Russian bear with sticks. What does this mean? For instance, this can mean stop encircling Russia with new NATO members who were former Warsaw Pact members, unilaterally withdrawing from the ABM treaty, and setting up missile bases in new NATO member states who border with Russia.

yee0890 wrote:More specifically, should US gov't get involved and help Georgia?

Beyond the US having insufficient ground troops for the purpose, Russia seems to be playing for keeps. Direct interference is ill-advised at best, and crazy at worst. Listen to an interview from Democracy Now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=380DYsymHkA

yee0890 wrote:What surprises me is that there still exist countries that try to invade others for political/economical reasons.

Other than the countries who invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? Or do you think that the invading armies are there for the weather, or to help the inhabitants?

yee0890 wrote:Oh and also, should UN be held responsible in dealing with the crisis?

If by "held responsible" you mean "broker a peace treaty", sure, that is if you can convince the Russians or anyone else not to veto the plan. Then why not?
ἀλλ' ἔγωγε ἐξ αὐτῶν τούτων μᾶλλον αὐτὸν τεθαύμακα, ὅτι ἔν τε ἀλλοκότοις καὶ ἐν ἐξαισίοις πράγμασι αὐτός τε διεγένετο καὶ τὴν ἀρχὴν διεσώσατο. Dio LXXII 36.3
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Re: Georgia-Russia Crisis

Postby Bert » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:46 pm

Amadeus wrote:
Bert wrote:Funny you had no comment to the effect that Russia should get off Georgia's face.


Uh... because the original poster asked about what the U.S. should do?

Good enough reason. Thanks.
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Postby PeterD » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:30 am

Stop prodding the Russian bear with sticks. What does this mean? For instance, this can mean stop encircling Russia with new NATO members who were former Warsaw Pact members, unilaterally withdrawing from the ABM treaty, and setting up missile bases in new NATO member states who border with Russia.

And before you know it, these new NATO members will be allocating half of their discretionary budget on armaments---armaments bought from the US, of course.

True. The Russian bear is back. Deal with it, neocons.

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Thank you, edonelly.

Imagine. The National Enquirer---of all papers!--- broke the Edwards story. And what a prick that Edwards is. His wife is seriously ill with cancer and all he could think about is his woody.

John McCain? Another prick. Claiming that the US can somehow decrease its foreign oil dependency by lifting its moratorium on US offshore drilling was an outright lie.

Obama? Is he running for president of the United States or for prime minister of Israel? No sooner does he clinch the Democratic nomination and what does he do? He runs to an Israeli lobby conference, bends over, and spreads his cheeks---the obligatory act of submission for any American presidential hopeful.
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis
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Postby Bert » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:42 pm

I don't know what you guys think about this but I don't like the attitude that we should leave others be, even if attocities are committed. I'm thinking of Rwanda, the Congo or Darfur.
Every country with some sort of military ability should have been ready to help. Concerning issues that are not as explosive as these, other means can be used but help should be available. Of course it is not only the lack of caring that is a factor but also governments that are less than sincere.
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Postby PeterD » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:12 am

Bert wrote:I don't know what you guys think about this but I don't like the attitude that we should leave others be, even if attocities are committed.

Russia's sentiment exactly, Bert. They were not going to sit idly by and watch Georgian troops (under the auspices of the United States, of course) ethnically cleanse S. Ossetia of its Russian population. And how the neocons miscalculated Russia's response!

Surprised? Don't sweat it. Anyone watching the American (corporate) news would have no idea that Georgia provoked the crisis; Georgia commited the atrocities.
Last edited by PeterD on Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Amadeus » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:35 am

Bert wrote:I don't know what you guys think about this but I don't like the attitude that we should leave others be, even if attocities are committed. I'm thinking of Rwanda, the Congo or Darfur.


I am with you. Even though I'm not American, I have always believed that the U.S., as a modern Roman empire, has the moral duty to use its influence to prevent or fight against such atrocities like Rwanda or Darfur. Complete isolationism doesn't work. Sadly, its actual response to these crimes against humanity has been, and is, rather poor.

Oh, but when it comes to unduly extending its influence beyond what is reasonable, like promoting the expansion of NATO (even though the cold war ended in 1991), or when there is oil involved (Irak and Georgia), no one should dare oppose the US government and its Corporations.

PeterD wrote:Suprised? Don't sweat it. Anyone watching the American (corporate) news would have no idea that Georgia provoked the crisis; Georgia commited the atrocities.


I'm quite surprised at the bias that is coming out of the networks, including the BBC. I have yet to hear someone ask Saakashvili (who's been so melodramatic throughout this whole ordeal) the tough questions that are being thrown at the Russian spokespeople. Almost no one is analyzing this man's actions against the South Ossetians, a people who, by a majority of 90%, want to be independent from Saakashvili's paradise of a democracy.

The news is quite depressing. I fear that we are indeed heading for a new Cold War... that is, if we are not already in one.
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Postby PeterD » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:00 am

Wow! Fox News didn't see this coming.

Watch the video below between the Fox News anchor and a 12-year-old Ossetian-American girl who had just arrived from S. Ossetia:

http://www.juancole.com (need to scroll down just a bit to "Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells Truth About Georgia")

If it's not available in the above site, watch it here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

Ahhh. . . the beauty of live TV!
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Postby Koehnsen » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:28 am

Amadeus wrote:...I have always believed that the U.S., as a modern Roman empire, has the moral duty to use its influence to prevent or fight against such atrocities like Rwanda or Darfur. Complete isolationism doesn't work...


Just to clarify, nations and especially empires like the United States never act because of moral duty despite what they may say. They act in what they believe is their own self-interest. They may use morality as a pretext for their intervention, but there hasn't been a single war the US has fought that didn't have first and foremost some benefit for the US.

This is true of even the so-called "Good War," World War 2. The US battled Japan for hegemony in the Pacific to protect her interests in oil and rubber and overall influence in the region, and in Europe the US was given the opportunity to extend her influence in Europe as Great Britain zeroed out economically.

Sorry for the threadjack, but I had to chime in.
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Postby quendidil » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:12 pm

Koehnsen wrote:
Amadeus wrote:...I have always believed that the U.S., as a modern Roman empire, has the moral duty to use its influence to prevent or fight against such atrocities like Rwanda or Darfur. Complete isolationism doesn't work...


Just to clarify, nations and especially empires like the United States never act because of moral duty despite what they may say. They act in what they believe is their own self-interest. They may use morality as a pretext for their intervention, but there hasn't been a single war the US has fought that didn't have first and foremost some benefit for the US.

This is true of even the so-called "Good War," World War 2. The US battled Japan for hegemony in the Pacific to protect her interests in oil and rubber and overall influence in the region, and in Europe the US was given the opportunity to extend her influence in Europe as Great Britain zeroed out economically.

Sorry for the threadjack, but I had to chime in.
Japan did do some terrible things across Asia during their occupation though. I doubt the Americans were fighting them because of this but the fact that there were atrocities committed remains regardless.
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Postby Bert » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:33 pm

Koehnsen wrote:This is true of even the so-called "Good War," World War 2. The US battled Japan for hegemony in the Pacific to protect her interests in oil and rubber and overall influence in the region, and in Europe the US was given the opportunity to extend her influence in Europe as Great Britain zeroed out economically.

I am not that cynical yet.
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Postby tranquill » Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:59 pm

Russia-Georgia conflict created a big headache for Israel which armed and trained Georgians for years - and now suddenly Russians threaten retaliation by supplying S-300 SAM batteries to Syria. Here is what a prominent Israeli analyst says: http://samsonblinded.org/blog/on-russia ... israel.htm
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