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Living Languages

Postby Lex » Tue Sep 30, 2003 6:04 pm

I was wondering if there were any places on the Web like TextKit that were dedicated to providing electronic copies of old books in living languages, like German, French, Italian, etc. Does anybody know of such a place?
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Episcopus » Tue Sep 30, 2003 6:12 pm

I have a funky french grammar - 1851 - A french grammar by C.J. Delille. It's more a reference grammar but sweet anyhow!<br />I was looking for an Italian grammar. The older grammars for me are just nicer, simpler...no LEARN LANGUAGES FAST! BE FLUENT WITH NEW XXXXXX METHOD! <br /><br />
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Re:Living Languages

Postby klewlis » Tue Sep 30, 2003 6:25 pm

gutenberg.<br /><br />http://gutenberg.net/
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Lex » Tue Sep 30, 2003 6:32 pm

[quote author=klewlis link=board=6;threadid=750;start=0#7408 date=1064946349]<br />gutenberg.<br /><br />http://gutenberg.net/<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Oops, typo. I meant to type "old books on living languages", i.e. grammars, tutorials, etc.
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Re:Living Languages

Postby mariek » Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:16 pm

<br />That's a good question! Unfortunately, I can't think of any sites like Textkit. I'd be interested in a French site.<br /><br />On the hand, if you're looking for French book recommendations, just give a shout...<br /><br />
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Lex » Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:58 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=6;threadid=750;start=0#7427 date=1064960180]<br />That's a good question! Unfortunately, I can't think of any sites like Textkit. I'd be interested in a French site.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Thanks, but I have several French grammars. (Thank you, outlet book stores!) I was looking for a good German grammar that doesn't cost $40 for a paperback, and haven't been able to find any in PDF form on the web.
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Keesa » Wed Oct 01, 2003 11:39 pm

I did a Google search using several different search terms, and didn't come up with anything.
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Clemens » Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:10 pm

But learn German anyway - it's a wonderful language...;D
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Episcopus » Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:26 pm

German has preserved its "old" style more than any other modern language qu'I know. It is great but very difficult. The inflexions are not straightforward although they may seem thus. A natural knack of comprehending thoroughly languages is required also for easy rendering of the strict word order.<br />Sprachgefuhl habe ich in meinem Kopf. (or is kopf feminine? See?! ;) ) <br /><br />
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Emma_85 » Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:38 pm

Posted by: Clemens Posted <br />But learn German anyway - it's a wonderful language...;D <br /><br /><br />Uhh... I disagree... <br /><br />Now if I had time on my hands to learn some other languages I'd try to learn Finnish.
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Lex » Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:13 pm

[quote author=Emma_85 link=board=6;threadid=750;start=0#7594 date=1065112700]<br />Posted by: Clemens Posted <br />But learn German anyway - it's a wonderful language...;D <br /><br /><br />Uhh... I disagree... <br /><br />Now if I had time on my hands to learn some other languages I'd try to learn Finnish.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Egads! German at least only has four cases (as did old English). Finnish has, what, twenty some cases? No thanks!
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Emma_85 » Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:31 pm

Lol, I know... fascinating, isn't it? <br />I would like to learn Finnish, because I really want to try to learn a language that isn't Indo-European, and Finnish is Finno-Ugrian. I suppose I could always learn Japanese or something like that, but Finland is much closer (and they have great rock groups in Finland :P).<br />
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Clemens » Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:32 pm

I've found some quotations that are really good:<br /><br />"Das Leben ist zu kurz, um Deutsch zu lernen." <br />Oscar Wilde <br /> <br />"Deutsche Sprache - schwere Sprache. Deshalb vereinfachen wir sie erfolgreich durch Englisch."<br />Erhard Blanck <br /> <br />( ;D )<br />
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Emma_85 » Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:41 pm

:D Now I know what to write all over my German book... hope my mad German teacher reads it.
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Clemens » Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:48 pm

Another one I like is:<br /><br />"Deutsch ist schon allein deshalb eine gute Sprache, weil es zwei verschiedene Wörter für Mann und Mensch gibt."
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Re:Living Languages

Postby mariek » Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:25 pm

[quote author=Lector link=board=6;threadid=750;start=0#7523 date=1065038291]<br />I was looking for a good German grammar that doesn't cost $40 for a paperback, and haven't been able to find any in PDF form on the web.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Let me know if you stumble upon a good one. I'd be interested in an advanced German grammar.<br /><br />
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Carola » Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:53 am

I am also looking for something similar on classical Arabic but it seems there isn't anything around. (And I have had to curb my book spending whilst I pay for the builders renovating our house to get rich! Woe! Misery!)
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Episcopus » Fri Oct 03, 2003 10:37 am

Haha but finnish pronunciation would be very hard. They speak up and down tones which may only be done if you are a professor or have "Sprachgefuhl" (of finland)
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Emma_85 » Fri Oct 03, 2003 1:51 pm

Well, as I said, if I had any time...<br />Anyway, the best way to learn a modern language is to just go and live in the country for some time. Lol, but there are too many places where I want to live... ;)
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Episcopus » Fri Oct 03, 2003 8:17 pm

I want to go to Iceland, guess why! Then to the Phillipines for nice variation.<br />...to learn the languages of course :)
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Emma_85 » Fri Oct 03, 2003 8:56 pm

It's my big dream in life to visit Oman and maybe even live there for a while. Sounds like the laziest place in the whole world (my dad lived there), so I'd fit in there perfectly. One of my many dreams, mind you. Such as learning Finnish, travelling to India and so on.... :)
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Keesa » Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:05 pm

I want to live in Wales and learn to speak Welsh. That's after I spend some time (such as, a lifetime or two!) in the Gael-Gael-Gael-however-you-spell-it, where they speak Gaelic. And after Wales, France (or Belgium), and after Belgium (provided I'm still alive) possibly Italy.
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Episcopus » Sat Oct 04, 2003 1:12 pm

[quote author=Keesa link=board=6;threadid=750;start=15#7684 date=1065222307]<br />I want to live in Wales and learn to speak Welsh. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />I can not be more serious in my saying that you do not want to do this. The language is nasty and English is spoken by 99% of the welsh population plus the place is not too nice.<br />There are so many other dreams that you want to realise - this one you will soon find out is not a dream.
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Keesa » Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:44 pm

We've been over this before-I like the Welsh language. You don't think Wales is a nice place to go, I don't think the Vatican is a nice place to go. Can't that make it even? We just have different dreams, you and I.
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Emma_85 » Sat Oct 04, 2003 3:07 pm

Except of course he lives in Wales and you don't live in the Vatican ;). <br />There are no doubt places in Wales that are not so nice, but I've heard that the countryside there is beautiful. <br /><br />Keesa, do you listen to any Welsh Radio stations on the internet such as http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymru/radiocymru/index.shtml ?
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Episcopus » Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:34 pm

What a loser radio station!<br /><br />I've been to some of the nicest places in Wales. Granted St. Davids is a lovely city and Brecon's countryside is class; but the bad outweighs the good when comparing it to many many other countries in the world. Slap yourself please! ;)
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Emma_85 » Sat Oct 04, 2003 8:07 pm

Uh.... which countries in the world do you think are better? Think hard - I assure you, you won't find many.
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Keesa » Sat Oct 04, 2003 8:42 pm

[quote author=Emma_85 link=board=6;threadid=750;start=15#7708 date=1065280026]<br />Keesa, do you listen to any Welsh Radio stations on the internet such as http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymru/radiocymru/index.shtml ?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />No, I didn't even know it existed! Thank you so much! That's awesome!
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Keesa » Sat Oct 04, 2003 8:44 pm

You don't happen to speak Welsh, do you, Episcopus?
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Episcopus » Sun Oct 05, 2003 7:22 pm

Like 80% of the population, no I do not. And of this I am proud - after in excess of 10 years trying to shove it down my throat I know about 5 words. Brilliant because it's a nasty unpleasant language which 95% of welsh people mock.<br /><br />"ch ch ch dd och ydd ddiaaryddiaethcccwoddchchud"<br /><br />Not that that's an actual word but if you squint your eyes at welsh prose that's what every line looks like ;)
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Keesa » Sun Oct 05, 2003 10:52 pm

You wouldn't know how to pronounce this, would you? "Fflewdder," it's a proper name, but the closest I can come to pronouncing it is "Vlewther," and I'm not sure how close that actually is...
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Lex » Mon Oct 06, 2003 2:42 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=6;threadid=750;start=15#7748 date=1065381769]<br />Like 80% of the population, no I do not. And of this I am proud - after in excess of 10 years trying to shove it down my throat I know about 5 words. Brilliant because it's a nasty unpleasant language which 95% of welsh people mock.<br /><br />"ch ch ch dd och ydd ddiaaryddiaethcccwoddchchud"<br /><br />Not that that's an actual word but if you squint your eyes at welsh prose that's what every line looks like ;)<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Sassenach bastarrrrrrd! ;)<br /><br />Seriously, I hate when I hear of countries that prevent people from properly teaching their children their native language in public schools. But forcing children to learn a language that isn't really native to them, and which they don't want to learn, isn't any better.<br /><br />However, I also don't favor forcing people to learn any foreign language (German, Spanish, French, etc.) or classical language like Greek or Latin. If the student doesn't want to learn it, he won't, and it will be a waste of time, effort and money on everyone's part.
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Episcopus » Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:00 pm

You have much reason. It is indeed pointless and it may seem that I be hating on welsh - well, I am; but it's because of their forcing me not mere disrespect for the language. I just think that it's pointless and horrid. Thus I will never learn it, like Hebrew. Its alphabet is nasty and sounds disgusting. Urgh. Hebrew makes me sick.
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Postby benissimus » Wed Oct 08, 2003 12:07 am

I should think that you would know now that a great deal of a language's beauty lies in its complexity and people and not in its sound (although the sound of Hebrew or Welsh could still be considered beautiful, depending on opinion).
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Postby Episcopus » Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:57 pm

I know what you mean, but it has to sound nice to me. Greek doesn't really attract me as it has nothing distinct for me. I like German French Italian Latin because they are all unique. Hebrew vero sounds like Gollum vomiting and its alphabet looks like the remains of the dead spider that I crushed last night. And all this is despite the fact that it is very complex (contracted prepositions etc.) but Italian has a huge table of all that.
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Postby Emma_85 » Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:36 pm

You like the sound of Latin? Really? I think Greek sounds lovely, but Latin just sounds well... crude to me, I don't think it sounds special at all.
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Postby benissimus » Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:21 pm

I agree that Greek sounds beautiful, but I also think Latin sounds just as beautiful (when pronounced accurately... which entails more than most people attempt). Greek has sort of a sing-song quality to it that makes it particularly interesting.
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Postby Lex » Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:36 pm

Emma_85 wrote:You like the sound of Latin? Really? I think Greek sounds lovely, but Latin just sounds well... crude to me, I don't think it sounds special at all.


Strange. Although I'm no expert in the pronunciation of either, Latin seems prettier than Greek to me. Somehow, "video" sounds better than "blepw". "blepw" sounds like a name you might hear in a Marx Brothers movie. And I agree that Hebrew (in fact any Semitic language that I've heard) sounds like a pack of cats coughing up hairballs.

Why is it that some of you seem to think that the more complex the language, the more beautiful it is? I am more of a "small is beautiful" person; I wish natural languages were more like Esperanto. It would be so much easier.
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Postby Episcopus » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:32 pm

Thankyou Lex, at least one doesn't call me nasty and ignorant for taking Hebrew out of the frame.

Latin is lovely! Slightly evil mysterious when pronounced properly. However I don't like the attemps at strict verse being recited. It sounds restricted and more like some demented guy convincing himself that his mother likes him.

I have plans for a little tribal language of my own which will sound awesome, but will have little inflexions. That's after Latin is done.
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Re:Living Languages

Postby Kalailan » Thu Oct 09, 2003 9:59 pm

Episcopus wrote:You have much reason. It is indeed pointless and it may seem that I be hating on welsh - well, I am; but it's because of their forcing me not mere disrespect for the language. I just think that it's pointless and horrid. Thus I will never learn it, like Hebrew. Its alphabet is nasty and sounds disgusting. Urgh. Hebrew makes me sick.


Well, Excuse me!
i might agree that hebrew doesn't sound very well, but definetly not on the alphabet and structure. it is very compactic and therefore poetry is extremely beutifull. it is also very wisely devised (not talking about grammar at the moment). the word for "rising" and the word for "setting each end in letters that are similar but head to oposite direction, which enables even a child that just started reading to remember easily wether the moon is filling or emptying (??? i mean getting to the state of a full moon and back). that might seem insignificant to you, but as the jewish calander is lunar rather then solar, it used to matter to everyone (now most people don't even know what the jewish date is - they just use the christian).

and it also has a system of numbers that uses the alphabet, and that makes each word have a numeral value. in comparing values of words one can reach things that are sometimes astonishing - the name of god equals double of the value of the word for love, and things are endless to start describing here.
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