Introducing myself, and Homer Iliad, Book 1, line191

[byzantion45]

Hello fellow lovers of Greek. I have been "doing" Greek since 2008. Before that I spent a number of years on Latin, but I have found that as you work on a new language, old skills fall away. In 2009 I studied Open University A396, passing it reasonably well at the end of the year. Since then I have continued to do classical Greek, with a year out for an introduction to the modern language 2012/13. Now I read Homer with the vowels of modern Athens! As is often the case, I find that the more I learn the less I seem to know. And so I arrive on this board with a specific sticking point. Does anybody have a clue why, in Iliad Book 1 line 191, Homer uses a present optative between two aorist optatives, on the face of it regular replacements in an indirect question of deliberative subjunctives with optatives? I refer to the verb form "enarizoi". I note that this is an additional clause within the "whether" half of the question, but cannot fathom why Homer should switch tenses. Does any body have any ideas?

[finnjenk]

I think you must have been in the last cohort of A396. Are you still enjoying reading Homer?

[mwh]

ἐναρίζοι: the difference between present and aorist is aspectual, cf. e.g. 1.1 μῆνιν ἄειδε “set about singing.” Here perhaps something like “try to kill” (conative), though that may be overdoing it.

[jeidsath]

ἢ ὅ γε φάσγανον ὀξὺ ἐρυσσάμενος παρὰ μηροῦ
τοὺς μὲν ἀναστήσειεν, ὃ δ’ Ἀτρεΐδην ἐναρίζοι,
ἦε χόλον παύσειεν ἐρητύσειέ τε θυμόν.

Rather than conative, it seems to me just to be an in medias res description, describing the action immediately after he draws his sword. "Break up these men, and be about killing Agamemnon." Homer is consistent about portraying everybody in the Iliad as having perfect faith in Achilles' invincibility (including Achilles himself).

[klewlis]

welcome back :)

[mwh]

I think it’s important that the poem keep alive the possibility, however remote and unrealistic, that Achilles is not invincible and can indeed be killed. We may know or sense that he won’t be, or not within the Iliad, but it has to be kept open throughout the poem right up until the inexorable moment that Zeus puts the death-fates of Achilles and Hector into the scales in bk.22 and Hector’s tilts down:
ἀλλ᾽ ὅτε δὴ τὸ τέταρτον ἐπὶ κρουνοὺς ἀφίκοντο,

καὶ τότε δὴ χρύσεια πατὴρ ἐτίταινε τάλαντα,
ἐν δ᾽ ἐτίθει δύο κῆρε τανηλεγέος θανάτοιο,

τὴν μὲν Ἀχιλλῆος, τὴν δ᾽ Ἕκτορος ἱπποδάμοιο,

ἕλκε δὲ μέσσα λαβών· ῥέπε δ᾽ Ἕκτορος αἴσιμον ἦμαρ.

Michael (doing my best to keep this site alive in spite of everything)

[jeidsath]

Lucian has some good fun about Homer's description of his characters sometimes differing from his actual portrayal of them. (How strong is Zeus, actually?)

I thought you were going to come back to me with Achilles' one-off "ἤ κέν με δαμάσσεται, ἦ κεν ἐγὼ τόν" about Hector.

But if we want to pick representational lines about Homer's actual use of Achilles as a dramatic element, we'd do better with:

χαλεπόν τοι ἐρισθενέος Κρονίωνος / παισὶν ἐριζέμεναι ποταμοῖό περ ἐκγεγαῶτι And the voice sounding out of the water's turbulence: ὦ Ἀχιλεῦ, περὶ μὲν κρατέεις, περὶ δ’ αἴσυλα ῥέζεις ἀνδρῶν· αἰεὶ γάρ τοι ἀμύνουσιν θεοὶ αὐτοί.

Hector is allowed to speculate on the possibility of defeating Achilles.

λίην γὰρ κρατερὸς περὶ πάντων ἔστ’ ἀνθρώπων.
εἰ δέ κέ οἱ προπάροιθε πόλεος κατεναντίον ἔλθω·
καὶ γάρ θην τούτῳ τρωτὸς χρὼς ὀξέϊ χαλκῷ,
ἐν δὲ ἴα ψυχή, θνητὸν δέ ἕ φασ’ ἄνθρωποι
ἔμμεναι· αὐτάρ οἱ Κρονίδης Ζεὺς κῦδος ὀπάζει.

But when it comes down to the event, he doesn't get much of a showdown. Homer doesn't do anything to add any "is Achilles going to be defeated?" tension, like you'd expect in the climatic fight of, say, a Marvel movie. Achilles, as a dramatic element, is inexorable death and destruction for Hector.

[mwh]

Yes, we can agree that the Iliad is not much like a Marvel movie. It’s more complex and finely calibrated, and its medium is words alone. My point was simply that Achilles’ “inexorability” is not signed and sealed until that action-interrupting scene in bk.22 (and its delivery takes a little longer yet). Neither he nor any other mortal consider themselves invincible. They know they cannot control their fates.