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Achilles

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Achilles

Postby Raya » Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:43 am

I'm sorry - he's supposedly *the* hero of all time but I can't stand him! so selfish and sulky and... AAAARGH! ;D <br /><br />Hehehe... anyway, am I alone in this? What do you all think?
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Re:Achilles

Postby annis » Mon Apr 07, 2003 5:29 pm

If he were a nice guy would we have the story? It is his rage, after all, that is supposed to keep things going.<br /><br />--<br />wm<br />
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Re:Achilles

Postby GladiusRomae » Tue Apr 08, 2003 12:19 am

Possibly the problem is one of definition; My impression of the reason Achilles is great is that he, since he is such a good fighter, is intrincicly glorious. To the greeks, being a badass was an acceptable end in and of itself. So who cares if you're a twit...as long as you kick trojan a**, youre a de facto hero.
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Re:Achilles

Postby annis » Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:07 pm

> Possibly the problem is one of definition; My impression of the <br />> reason Achilles is great is that he, since he is such a good <br />> fighter, is intrincicly glorious. To the greeks, being a badass was <br />> an acceptable end in and of itself. So who cares if you're a <br />> twit...as long as you kick trojan a**, youre a de facto hero.<br /><br />I'm not so sure about that.<br /><br />Achilles is great because he's an aristocrat. His sulkiness when slighted was probably quite familiar and understandable to Homer's original aristo audience. Of course he was a good fighter, too.<br /><br />But I don't think "understandable == acceptable" in most world views, and considering the Iliad starts off with a brief summary of the horrors caused by Achilles' wrath, I don't think Homer or his audience thought Achilles was a great guy just because he was a badass. He's responsible for many deaths, including his friend's, and Homer doesn't gloss that over.<br /><br />I mean, The Odyssey's main character isn't exactly a very nice guy either: clever, certainly, and successful, but not exactly heroic or principled.<br /><br />The best literature, even if fantastic, gives us beings with flaws. Without them, you get no story, as I mentioned earlier.<br /><br />So, Achilles' fighting prowess might have been considered a thing to emulate, but I doubt very much the Greeks thought his attitude was something to copy, any more than was Agamemnon's. Later Greek philosophers call Homer to task on things like this.<br /><br />--<br />wm<br />
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Re:Achilles

Postby Raya » Thu Apr 24, 2003 4:39 pm

Would you believe I'm starting to sympathise with the guy now? I don't know - I'm rereading 'The Iliad', and for some reason I find myself seeing it from his perspective this time around.<br /><br />Oh dear... I believe I shall look back wistfully on "the days when I hated Achilles"...<br /><br />(WAAAH! :'( I need a new victim!!!)
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Re:Achilles

Postby annis » Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:04 pm

[quote author=Raya link=board=6;threadid=41;start=0#248 date=1051202370]<br />(WAAAH! :'( I need a new victim!!!)<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Agamemnon seems very hatable.
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Re:Achilles

Postby Jeff Tirey » Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:36 pm

Ajax was always my man - he was a real "doer". Didn't he turn into a bird or something later in the cycle? Speaking of the Homeric Cycle, does anyone know of a source that provides a bibliography roadmap of everything extant. I don't now if I have read everything that's out there but I want to - including Nikos Kazansakis - he picked up on the Odysseus story lineline.
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Re:Achilles

Postby Elucubrator » Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:00 pm

The OCT text of Homer (vol. V) has all the extant fragments of the Cycle.<br /><br />In addition the best book I have seen on the cycle is:<br /><br /> *The Epic Cycle* Bristol, (1989)<br /> author: Malcolm Davies<br /><br />this is the book you want.<br /><br />-S.
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