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Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

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Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby mariek » Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:05 pm

Spinoff from "How much do you study?" in the Learning Latin forum.<br />http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic . php?t=358;start=30.<br /><br /><br />[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=358;start=30#3038 date=1060262312]<br />and I'd just picked up this new (well, new to me....) "Odes and Epodes of Horace" and couldn't just leave it alone and go to sleep [/quote]<br /><br />Ah... the thrill of a new toy! And one that comes with batteries! ;D <br />I'm looking forward to reading "real" Latin works someday. I can only imagine the thrill you get from understanding it...<br />
<br />It does sound like a good book! And I rather suspect that you'll find it not as difficult as you may think. Furthermore, bitter experience tells me that if I see something in a bookstore that "might" be interesting later, when "later" comes, the book isn't there..... This results in a lot of my paycheque staying in the bookstore, but I'm rarely short of reading material..........
<br /><br />I understand what you mean. I've experienced this with other books. But I'm not quite ready to have my pay checks direct deposited into my local bookstore. But I think you might be right about this one (Aeneas to Augustus: A Beginning Latin Reader for College Students). It was not at the bookstore a couple weeks ago and I only saw one copy of it yesterday. (Of course Latin books never take up as much shelf space as other languages, such as Spanish). And I have never seen it before at any other bookstores, so maybe this is one of those possible "you snooze, you lose" moments. <br />
<br />(Maybe I should say, "one line".... some of those sentences can go on for PAGES...!)
<br /><br />Oh?? Now you're scaring me. :o <br />
<br />Actually, I find that if I'm making headway on whatever I'm working on, my study time goes up because I'd rather not stop.
<br /><br />I know the feeling, which is why I'm sometimes up way past my bedtime ... wanting to work on more Latin but my brain is too tired to work effectively so I make more mistakes. :(<br /><br />
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby Milito » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:16 pm

The first sentence of Cicero's that I ran into in the book I'm plowing through would have given any English teacher I ever had a small conniption...... 8 and a bit lines, and umpteen subordinate clauses later.......<br /><br />However, he's got some other ones that are nicely short and make up for it. I understand that the last sentence of James Joyce's "Ulysses" goes on for 40 pages or so, entirely composed of correct grammar, too..... so maybe Cicero isn't so bad.<br /><br />But seriously, you will probably be surprised at how much you can read already, (with a bit of help from either notes or a dictionary when an unfamiliar word pops up). For example, here's a direct quotation from Martial (who wrote a lot of scathing comments on pretty much everything....)<br /><br />Non amo te, Sabidi1, nec possum dicere2 quare3:<br />hoc tantum4 possum dicere2, non amo te.<br /><br />Notes: 1. Sabidi - vocative of name Sabidius/Sabidi<br />2. dicere - 3rd conjugation verb dico/dicere/dixi/dictum, "to say"<br />3. quare - adverb "why"<br />4. tantum - adverb "only"<br /><br />You can read that, and that's an actual quote!<br /><br />That's the idea behind readers - they slowly build your confidence (and vocabulary). They're a supplement to grammars.<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby mariek » Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:19 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=6;threadid=394;start=0#3062 date=1060276597]<br />The first sentence of Cicero's that I ran into in the book I'm plowing through would have given any English teacher I ever had a small conniption...... 8 and a bit lines, and umpteen subordinate clauses later....... [/quote]<br /><br />So let's say you're the author and you're writing this long sentence... do you work on pieces of it in numerous drafts before putting it together into one LONG sentence? Or do you just imagine it as a WHOLE from the beginning?<br /><br />Did Cicero write the sentence from left to right without errors or changes in word/phrase order?<br />
<br />Non amo te, Sabidi1, nec possum dicere2 quare3:<br />hoc tantum4 possum dicere2, non amo te.<br /><br />Notes: 1. Sabidi - vocative of name Sabidius/Sabidi<br />2. dicere - 3rd conjugation verb dico/dicere/dixi/dictum, "to say"<br />3. quare - adverb "why"<br />4. tantum - adverb "only
<br /><br />Here's my attempt:<br />I don't love you, Sabidius, and I can't even say why:<br />I can only say this, I don't love you.<br /><br />I'm really not sure about the nec possum dicere quare and hoc tantum possum dicere.<br /><br />
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby Milito » Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:35 pm

You're right on on your translation. Good job! See! I told you you could do it!<br /><br />I meant to give you another note for "nec" - it means "nor".<br /><br />As for Cicero.... I rather suspect that he roughed things out, and then polished, and then repolished, and then editted some more, and then polished just to be sure.... The book I'm reading is phrased as though it's a letter to his son who was at the time frittering away his time in Athens, rather than studying as he was supposed to be doing. But the book goes on for 3 rolled-up-scroll-equivalents, so I don't think he just dashed it off. He also had the tendency of having things he wrote published, often by his buddy Atticus, who owned a publishing house. (Useful, that!) <br /><br />Also, reading the most interesting "Scribes and Scholars" book, it pointed out that when things were published, they were copied by hand (by a small corps of slaves, usually...) and thus subject to copying errors. Add this to the fact that the authors would decide to amend what they've written, and would write to the publisher who might (or might not) put the change into other editions of the text. But now you've got two versions floating around, and eventually, you can have a whole bunch. The result is that for some more popular books, we now have to make choices about which words/word order to use, because we may have sources stemming from these several editions, with or without amendments.....<br /><br />You won't necessarily see all this in a reader like the one you're looking at, because it's choosing small sections of various works, doing the word choice for you. When you find a modern published version of a major work, there will be an explanation at the beginning to explain the sources of the text, and why what choices were made. Really, it doesn't matter if you're just interested in reading; it only matters if you're interested in figuring out how we wound up with what we have.<br /><br />And then, going back to Cicero, from what I've been able to gather about him, he was (for an ex-Consul and major lawyer) pretty much a perfectionist and kind of low in the self-esteem category, mostly because he kept trying to measure up to all the old aristocratic types, "fit in" with them and be accepted by them - and they weren't having any of it. He was also quite vain so far as his speaking and writing abilities were concerned, and he cared very much that he lived up to his reputation on that score, so I very much doubt that even one of his sentences didn't get crossed out on the way to the final copy at least once!<br /><br />Oh dear..... I appear to have climbed onto a soapbox again....<br /><br />Sorry about that....<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby ingrid70 » Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:53 pm

A famous translation from the martial epigram milito gave:<br /><br />I do not love thee, Doctor Fell,<br />The reason why I cannot tell;<br />But this alone I know full well,<br />I do not love thee, Doctor Fell.<br /><br /><br /><br />Ingrid
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby benissimus » Fri Aug 08, 2003 2:20 am

So that's why my textbook gave me that epigram labeled "I do not love thee, Doctor Fell!" Who is Doctor Fell?
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby ingrid70 » Fri Aug 08, 2003 7:35 am

A dean of christ church somewhere in the 17th century or so. The poem itself is quite old too, and can be found in about every collection of nursery rhymes on the internet. Pedagogically sound, to teach children to dislike people for no reason at all :)<br /><br />Ingrid
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby Keesa » Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:48 am

I first heard it on the movie "The Secret Garden", when Mary and Colin are talking about the Latin names for the flowers in the book they're looking at. I've always wondered what it would have been in Latin. Who knows? Someday, I should be able to translate it. <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby mariek » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:48 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=6;threadid=394;start=0#3068 date=1060281349]<br />You're right on on your translation. Good job! See! I told you you could do it! [/quote]<br /><br />Well of course it'd be simple with you holding my hands. :) If you let go, I'd probably trip, fall on my face and break my nose. <br /><br />
<br />As for Cicero.... I rather suspect that he roughed things out, and then polished, and then repolished, and then editted some more, and then polished just to be sure....
<br /><br />With such long sentences, it's too bad he didn't have a word processor to work on all those drafts! He must have gone through a lot of scrolls before settling on the final copy. He probably went through more drafts than most people because of the perfectionist in him. <br /><br />
<br />Also, reading the most interesting "Scribes and Scholars" book, it pointed out that when things were published, they were copied by hand (by a small corps of slaves, usually...) and thus subject to copying errors. Add this to the fact that the authors would decide to amend what they've written, and would write to the publisher who might (or might not) put the change into other editions of the text.
<br /><br />This is very interesting background info! Then there really is no way to distinguish the real absolute final copy from a first final copy (or other final copios). <br />
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby mariek » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:50 pm

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=6;threadid=394;start=0#3070 date=1060282431]<br />I do not love thee, Doctor Fell,<br />The reason why I cannot tell;<br />But this alone I know full well,<br />I do not love thee, Doctor Fell.[/quote]<br /><br />I've never heard this before, very neat! But does it rhyme in Latin? <br />
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby vinobrien » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:59 pm

No, but it does scan. Classical verse does not use rhyme, this seems to have been a late development. There is rhyming medieval Latin verse, the good old Carmina Burana is the best known.
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby benissimus » Sat Aug 09, 2003 5:43 am

O Fortuna.... :D
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby Episcopus » Sat Aug 09, 2003 10:25 am

That's not classical Latin? :D No wonder I thought it to be strange! :o
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby benissimus » Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:54 pm

The Carmina Burana uses many words that were either unseen or very rare in Classical Latin, and obviously the pronunciation is different. Some of the verses are also in Early French and German.
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby Keesa » Sat Aug 09, 2003 1:24 pm

Why have I never heard of the Carmina Burana? What is it, who wrote it, when did they write it? <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby benissimus » Sat Aug 09, 2003 1:49 pm

It's a wonderful collection of ancient poetry that was discovered, well-preserved, in recent centuries. Much of it has been put into operatic form as the Carmina Burana (Latin for "Songs/Poetry of Burana") by Carl Orff. I particularly like the first part, which happens to be a common background music in suspenseful movies.<br /><br />The lyrics to the first portion can be found here:<br />http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/orff-cb/carmlyr.html#track1
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby Keesa » Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:12 pm

Wow-that's neat! I never even knew it existed! :-[ <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby Borealis » Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:33 pm

Carmina Burana was used as the music for the movie Excalibur, if that helps. Great music.<br />
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby Keesa » Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:14 am

Hmmm.....I've never heard of Excalibur, either. (The movie, that is! Arthurian legend is a different thing entirely...) Perhaps I've neglected my cultural education? ;D<br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby bingley » Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:48 am

Great film. The background music is Carmina Burana and Wagner, and it all fits marvellously.<br /><br />I remember a conversation with my Latinless little brother.<br /><br />Bro: (hunting through my cassettes) Where's that fish song?<br /><br />Me: Fish song? What fish song?<br /><br />Bro: The one from the film.<br /><br />Me: (sighing)What fish song from what film?<br /><br />Bro: O for tuna something something
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby Keesa » Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:08 am

HAHAHAHA!!!! That sounds like something I would have said! :-[ ;D Ah, well, we can't all be perfect! <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Latin Readers (was: How much do you study?)

Postby mariek » Sun Aug 10, 2003 6:10 pm

[quote author=bingley link=board=6;threadid=394;start=15#3300 date=1060501710]<br />Bro: O for tuna something something [/quote]<br /><br />Oh, how funny! ;D <br />
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