Latin or Greek?

hellenistic747 · Post by **hellenistic747** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:23 pm

I suppose it's a stupid question, but is Latin easier to learn for an anglophone, with some Irish and French, than Greek?
And to be a success in the classics world does one need both languages, or is one better to have than the other? i mean to become an academic.
Thanks

Turpissimus · Post by **Turpissimus** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:04 am

I suppose it's a stupid question, but is Latin easier to learn for an anglophone, with some Irish and French, than Greek?

Yes. The Irish won't help too much (although experience learning any language helps in learning another), but the French might help you with Latin.

And to be a success in the classics world does one need both languages, or is one better to have than the other? i mean to become an academic.

Learning both will be tough, but not twice as tough as learning one. It will take dedication though, even to learn it so that one might read with facility. Becoming an academic may be very tough indeed. Most language courses in the UK will teach both Latin and Greek. It's difficult for me to imagine a serious professional, rather than a dilettante like myself, speaking only one.

benissimus · Post by **benissimus** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:36 am

In my opinion, Greek is a harder language altogether. Latin is much more regular and requires less memorization of principal parts and variants. Greek is easier in some other ways though. The tie-breaker for me is that if you know English then you should have little problem adapting to Latin vocabulary, whereas Greek words most often look very dissimilar to English words. Certainly your greatest concern should be learning the language you are most interested in learning though

cweb255 · Post by **cweb255** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:36 pm

To truly become the academic scholar in Classics, which I presume you are talking about, since we no longer have any Latin works of the Greek, you need to become proficient in both languages. Only when you can read the Republic in Latin and Politeia in Greek will you have mastered them.

whiteoctave · Post by **whiteoctave** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:29 am

To truly split infinitives and hairs, cweb, I suppose one does need to read Cicero (I presume you do mean his de re publica and not, say, M.G. Vida's latin dialogue or Apuleius' of the same title) and Plato (again I presume you do mean his πολιτεία and not, say, Heraclidus' περὶ πολιτειῶν), though that hardly merits ones becoming an 'academic scholar'.
As for our 'no longer [having] any Latin works of the Greek', a great part of Greek literature has been translated into Latin in the last 600 years or so (along with the Romans' own translations of many works).

~D

cweb255 · Post by **cweb255** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:35 pm

Those are lost works, whiteoctave, lost and lost. Have you read Politeia in Latin? How about Homer? Have you read Aneid in English? God should have condemned Fitzgerald if only he had not made such an excellent English work, no matter how far removed from the original.

whiteoctave · Post by **whiteoctave** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:11 pm

how curious.
i have read the Aeneid in Latin as well as English, like most people I presume. I have read some of Homer in Latin, over half in Greek and, like most people, all in English.
The whole of Homer's two epics exist in Latin. Here is the first book:

Iram pande mihi Pelidae, Diva, superbi,
Tristia quae miseris iniecit funera Grais
Atque animas fortes heroum tradidit orco,
Latrantumque dedit rostris volucrumque trahendos

5
Illorum exsangues inhumatis ossibus artus.
Confiebat enim summi sententia regis,
Ut primum tulerant discordi pectore pugnas,
Sceptriger Atrides et bello clarus Achilles.
Quis deus hos ira tristi contendere iussit?

10
Latonae et magni proles Iovis. ille Pelasgum
Infestus regi pestem in praetoria misit
Inplicuitque gravi Danaorum corpora morbo.
Nam quondam Chryses, sollemni tempora vitta
Inplicitus, raptae flevit solatia natae

15
Invisosque dies invisaque tempora noctis
Egit et assiduis implevit questibus auras.
Postquam nulla dies animum maerore levabat
Nullaque lenibant patrios solatia fletus,
Castra petit Danaum genibusque affusus Atridae

20
Per superos regnique decus miserabilis orat,
Ut sibi causa suae reddatur nata salutis.
Dona simul praefert. vincuntur fletibus eius
Myrmidones reddique patri Chryseida censent.
Sed negat Atrides Chrysenque excedere castris

25
Despecta pietate iubet; ferus ossibus imis
Haeret amor, spernitque preces damnosa libido.
Contemptus repetit Phoebeia templa sacerdos
Squalidaque infestis maerens secat unguibus ora
Dilaceratque comas annosaque tempora plangit.

30
Mox ubi depositi gemitus lacrimaeque quierunt,
Fatidici sacras compellat vocibus aras:
«Quid coluisse mihi tua numina, Delphice, prodest
Aut castam multos vitam duxisse per annos?
Quidve iuvat sacros posuisse altaribus ignes,

35
Si tuus externo iam spernor ab hoste sacerdos?
En, haec desertae redduntur dona senectae?
Si gratus tibi sum, sim te sub vindice tutus.
Aut si qua, ut luerem sub acerbo crimine poenam,
Inscius admisi, cur o tua dextera cessat?

40
Posce sacros arcus, in me tua derige tela:
Auctor mortis erit certe deus. ecce merentem
Fige patrem: cur nata luit peccata parentis
Atque hostis duri patitur miseranda cubile?»
Dixit; at ille sui vatis prece motus acerbis

45
Luctibus infestat Danaos pestemque per omnes
Inmittit populos: vulgus ruit undique Graium,
Vixque rogis superest tellus, vix ignibus arbor,
Derat ager tumulis. iam noctis sidera nonae
Transierant decimusque dies patefecerat orbem,

50
Cum Danaum proceres in coetum clarus Achilles
Convocat et causas hortatur pestis iniquae
Edere Thestoriden. tunc Calchas numina divum
Consulit et causam pariter finemque malorum
Invenit; effarique verens ope tutus Achillis

55
Haec ait «infesti placemus numina Phoebi
Reddamusque pio castam Chryseida patri,
Si volumus Danai portus intrare salutis».
Dixerat; exarsit subito violentia regis:
Thestoriden dictis primum compellat amaris

60
Mendacemque vocat; tum magnum incusat Achillem
Inque vicem ducis invicti convicia suffert.
Confremuere omnes. tandem clamore represso
Cogitur invitos aeger dimittere amores
Intactamque pio reddit Chryseida patri,

65
Multaque dona super; quam cunctis notus Ulixes
Inpositam puppi patrias devexit ad arces
Atque iterum ad Danaum classes sua vela retorsit.
Protinus infesti placantur numina Phoebi
[Et prope consumptae vires redduntur Achivis.]
Non tamen Atridae Chryseidis excidit ardor:

70
Maeret et amissos deceptus luget amores.
Mox rapta magnum Briseide privat Achillem
Solaturque suos alienis ignibus ignes.
At ferus Aeacides nudato protinus ense
Tendit in Atriden et, ni sibi reddat honestae

75
Munera militiae, letum crudele minatur;
Nec minus ille parat contra defendere sese.
Quod nisi casta manu Pallas tenuisset Achillem,
Turpem caecus amor famam liquisset in aevum
Gentibus Argolicis. contempta voce minisque

80
. . . . . . . . . .
Invocat aequoreae Pelides numina matris,
Ne se Plistheniden contra patiatur inultum.
At Thetis audita nati prece deserit undas
Castraque Myrmidonum iuxta petit et monet, armis

85
Abstineat dextra, e congressuque inde per auras
Emicat aethereas et in aurea sidera fertur.
Tunc genibus regis sparsis affusa capillis
«Pro nato veni genetrix en ad tua supplex
Numina, summe parens! ulciscere meque meumque

90
Pignus ab Atrida. quodsi permittitur illi,
Ut flammas inpune mei violarit Achillis,
Turpiter occiderit superata libidine virtus.»
Iuppiter huic contra «tristes depone querellas,
Magni diva maris, mecum labor iste manebit.

95
Tu solare tui maerentia pectora nati».
Dixit; at illa levis caeli delapsa per auras
Litus adit patrium gratasque sororibus undas.
Offensa est Iuno «tantum»que ait, «optime coniunx,
Doride nata valet, tantum debetur Achilli,

100
Ut mihi, quae coniunx dicor tua quaeque sororis
Dulce fero nomen, dilectos fundere Achivos
Et Troum renovare velis in praelia vires?
Haec tu dona refers nobis? sic diligor a te?»
Talibus incusat dictis irata Tonantem

105
Inque vicem summi patitur convicia regis.

106
Tandem interposito lis Ignipotente resedit,

109
Et dapibus divi curant sua corpora largis.

108
Interea sol emenso decedit Olympo:

107
Conciliumque simul genitor dimittit ab aula;

110
Inde petunt thalamos iocundaque dona quietis.

II
Nox erat et toto fulgebant sidera mundo
Humanumque genus requies divumque tenebat,
Cum pater omnipotens somnum vocat atque ita fatur:
«Vade age per tenues auras, lenissime divum,

115
Argolicique ducis celeri pete castra volatu
Dumque tuo premitur sopitus pondere dulci,
Haec illi mandata refer: cum crastina primum
Extulerit Titana dies noctemque fugarit,
Cogat in arma viros incautumque occupet hostem.»

120
Nec mora: somnus abit levibusque per aera pennis
Devolat in thalamos Agamemnonis: ille sopore
Corpus inundatum leni prostratus habebat.
Ad quem sic loquitur curarum operumque levator:
«Rex Danaum Atride, vigila et mandata Tonantis,

125
Quae tibi missa simul delatus ab aethere porto,
Accipe: cum primum Titan se emerserit undis,
Fortibus arma iube socios aptare lacertis
Et petere Iliacos instructo milite campos.»
Dixit et has repetit per quas modo venerat auras.

130
Interea lucem terris dedit ignea lampas.
Convocat attonitus visis Pelopeius heros
In coetum proceres remque omnibus ordine pandit.
Cuncti promittunt socias in praelia vires
Hortanturque duces; quorum rex fortia dictis

135
Pectora conlaudat gratesque agit omnibus aequas.
Hic tum Thersites, quo non deformior alter
Venerat ad Troiam linguave protervior, ultra,
Bella gerenda negat patriasque hortatur ad oras
Vertere iter; quem consiliis inlustris Ulixes

140
Correptum dictis sceptro percussit eburno.
Tum vero ardescit conceptis litibus ira:
Vix telis caruere manus, ad sidera clamor
Tollitur, et cunctos pugnandi corripit ardor.
Tandem sollertis prudentia Nestoris aevo

145
Compressam miti sedavit pondere turbam
Admonuitque duces dictis, responsa recordans
Temporis illius, quo visus in Aulide serpens
Consumpsit volucrum bis quattuor arbore fetus
Atque ipsam invalido pugnantem corpore contra

150
Addidit extremo natorum funere matrem.
Tunc sic deinde: «senex remoror, remoramini, Achivi:
In decimo labor est, Calchas quem dixerat, anno,
Quo cadet ec Danaum victricibus Ilion armis.»
Assensere omnes, laudatur Nestoris aetas,

155
Conciliumque simul dimittitur; arma parari
Dux omnis iubet atque aptari corpora pugnae.
Postera lux tacitas ut primum depulit umbras
Et nitidum Titan radiis caput extulit undis,
Protinus armari socios iubet acer Atrides

160
Et petere Iliacos instructo milite campos.
Vos mihi nunc, Musae (quid enim non ordine nostis?),
Nomina clara ducum clarosque referte parentes
Et dulces patrias: nam sunt haec munera vestra.
Dicamus, quot quisque rates ad Pergama duxit,

165
Et coeptum peragamus opus, sitque auctor Apollo
Aspiretque libens operi per singula nostro.
Peneleus princeps et bello Leitus acer
Arcesilaus atrox Prothoenorque Cloniusque
Boeoti decies quinas egere carinas

170
Et tumidos valido pulsarunt remige fluctus.
Inde Mycenaeis Agamemnon moenibus ortus,
Quem sibi delegit bellatrix Graecia regem,
Centum egit plenas armato milite puppes.
Et bis tricenis Menelai navibus ardor

175
Insequitur totidemque ferox Agapenoris ira.
Quos iuxta fidus sollerti pectore Nestor
Consilioque potens gemina cum prole suorum
It ter tricenis munitus in arma carinis.
At Schedius virtute potens et Epistrophus ingens,

180
Gloria Myrmidonum, saevi duo robora belli,
Longa quaterdenis sulcarunt aequora proris.
Et bis vicenas Polypoetes atque Leonteus
Instruxere rates, oneratas milite forti.
Euryalus Sthenelusque . . . . . . et fortis in armis

185
Tydides valido pulsantes remige fluctus
Bis quadragenas onerarunt milite puppes.
Ascalaphusque potens et Ialmenus, acer uterque,
Ter denas valido complerunt remige naves.
Et bis vicenas Locrum fortissimus Aiax

190
Instruxit puppes totidemque Euhaemone natus.
Quos iuxta Graium durus comitator Achilles,
Cum quinquaginta materna per aequora vectus.
Thessalici iuvenes Phidippus et Antiphus ibant
Altaque ter denis sulcarunt aequora proris.

195
Et tribus assumptis ratibus secat aequora Nireus,
Tlepolemusque novem Rhodius, quos viribus acer
Eumelus sequitur, minus una nave profectus
Quam duxit Telamone satus Salaminius Aiax.
At Prothous Magnes Tenthredone natus et una

200
Euboeae magnis Elephenor finibus ortus
Dulichiusque Meges, animisque insignis et armis,
Aetola de gente Thoas Andraemone natus,
Hi quadragenas omnes duxere carinas.
Et bis sex Ithaci naves sollertia duxit;

205
Quem sequitur totidem ratibus Telamonius Aiax,
Egregia virtute potens; simul horrida Guneus
Ire bis undenis tendebat in arma carinis.
Idomeneus et Meriones, Cretaeus uterque,
Bis quadragenis muniti navibus ibant.

210
Et totidem puppes clara de gente Menestheus
Duxit Athenaeus, quot viribus addit Achilles.
Amphimachusque ferox et Thalpius, Elide nati,
Et clara virtute Polyxenus atque Diores.
Hi bis vicenas onerarunt milite naves.

215
Protesilaus agit totidem fortisque Podarces
Instructas puppes, quot duxit Oileos Aiax.
Et septem Poeante satus dat in arma carinas.
Quem sequitur iuxta Podalirius atque Machaon,
Altaque ter denis sulcarunt aequora proris.

220
His ducibus Graiae Troiana ad litora puppes
Bis septem venere minus quam mille ducentae.
Iamque citam appulerant classem camposque tenebant,
Cum pater ad Priamum mittit Saturnius Irim,
Quae doceat fortes venisse ad bella Pelasgos.

225
Nec mora: continuo iussu capit arma parentis
Priamides Hector totamque in praelia pubem
Festinare iubet portisque agit agmen apertis.
Cui fulgens auro cassis iuvenile tegebat
Omni parte caput, munibat pectora thorax,

230
Et clipeus laevam, dextram decoraverat hasta
Ornabatque latus mucro; simul alta nitentes
Crura tegunt ocreae, quales decet Hectoris esse.
Hunc sequitur forma melior nec fortis in armis
Belli causa Paris, patriae funesta ruina;

235
Deiphobusque Helenusque simul fortisque Polites,
Et sacer Aeneas, Veneris certissima proles,
Archilochusque Acamasque ferox Antenore creti.
Nec non et proles generosa Lycaonis ibat
Pandarus et magnae Glaucus virtutis in armis;

240
Amphiusque et Adrastus et Asius atque Pylaeus.
Ibat et Amphimachus Nastesque, insignis uterque,
Magnanimique duces Hodiusque et Epistrophus ingens
Euphemusque ferox clarusque aetate Pyraechmes;
Cum quibus et Mesthles atque Antiphus et bonus armis

245
Hippothousque Acamasque ivere et Pirous una,
Alcinooque sati Chromiusque atque Ennomus, ambo
Florentes aetate viri, quos Phorcus et ingens
Ascanius sequitur, simul et Iovis inclita proles
Sarpedon claraque satus tellure Pylaemen.

250
His se defendit ducibus Neptunia Troia,
Vicissetque dolos Danaum, ni fata fuissent.

III
Iamque duae stabant acies fulgentibus armis,
Cum Paris, exitium Troiae funestaque flamma,
Armatum adverso Menelaum ex agmine cernit

255
Seque velut viso perterritus angue recepit
Ad socios amens; quem postquam turpiter Hector
Confusum terrore videt, «o dedecus» inquit
«Aeternum patriae generisque infamia nostri,
Terga refers? at non dubitabas hospitis olim

260
Expugnare toros, cuius nunc defugis arma
Vimque times! ubi sunt artes, ubi cognita nobis
Ludorum quondam vario in certamine mens est?
Hic animos ostende tuos: nihil adiuvat arma
Nobilitas formae: duro Mars milite gaudet.

265
Dum iaceas in amore tuo, nos bella geremus
Scilicet et nostrum fundemus in hoste cruorem!
Aequius adversis tecum concurret in armis
Impiger Atrides: spectet Danaumque Phrygumque
Depositis populus telis, vos foedere iuncto

270
Adversas conferte manus, decernite ferro.»
Dixit. quem contra paucis Priameius heros
«Quid nimis indignis» inquit «me vocibus urgues,
O patriae, germane, decus? nam nec mihi coniunx
Pravaque luxuria est potior virtutis honore

275
Nec vires temptare viri dextramque recuso,
Dummodo victorem coniunx cum pace sequatur.»
Dicta refert Hector; placuit sententia Grais.
Protinus accitur Priamus, sacrisque peractis
Foedera iunguntur; post haec decedit uterque

280
Depositis populus telis campusque patescit.
Interea toto procedit ab agmine Troum
Pulcher Alexander, clipeoque insignis et hasta.
Quem contra paribus fulgens Menelaus in armis
Constitit et «tecum mihi sint certamina» dixit

285
«Nec longum nostra laetabere coniuge, quae te
Mox raptum ire gemet, tantummodo Iuppiter adsit.»
Dixit et adversum se concitat acer in hostem.
Ille virum forti vementem reppulit ictu
Seque gradu celeri recipit longeque frementem

290
Hastam deinde iacit; quam devitavit Atrides.
Inque vicem misso fixisset corpora telo
Praedonis Phrygii, ni vastum ferrea pectus
Texisset lorica viri septemplice tergo
Insequitur iuxta clamor; tum adversus uterque

295
Constitit et galeam galea terit et pede plantam
Coniungit, stridetque mucro mucrone corusco.
[Corpus collectum tegitur fulgentibus armis.]
Non aliter fortes nitida de coniuge tauri
Bella gerunt vastisque replent mugitibus auras.

300
Utque diu rigido captabant corpora ferro,
Tum memor Atrides raptae sibi coniugis instat
Dardaniumque premit iuvenem mox ense rigente;
Cedentemque retro dum desuper appetit hostem,
Splendidus extremas galeae percussus ad oras

305
Dissiluit mucro; gemuerunt agmina Graium.
Tum vero ardescit, quamvis manus ense carebat,
Et iuvenem arrepta prosternit casside victor
Ad sociosque trahit; et ni caligine caeca
Texisset Cytherea virum subiectaque mento

310
Fortia rupisset laxatis vincula nodis,
Ultimus ille dies Paridi foret. abstrahit auro
Fulgentem galeam secum Menelaus et ardens
In medios mittit proceres rursumque recurrit
Et magnam validis contorsit viribus hastam

315
In cladem Phrygii, sua quem Venus eripit hosti
Et secum in thalamos defert testudine cultos.
Ipsa dehinc Helenam muris accersit ab altis
Dardanioque suos Paridi deducit amores.
Quem tali postquam conspexit voce locuta est

320
«Venisti, mea flamma, Paris, superatus ab armis
Coniugis antiqui? vidi puduitque videre,
Arreptum cum te traheret violentus Atrides
Iliacoque tuos foedaret pulvere crines.
Nostraque (me miseram!) timui ne Doricus ensis

325
Oscula dissiceret; totus mihi mente revincta
Fugerat ore color, sanguisque reliquerat artus.
Quis tibi cum saevo contendere suasit Atrida?
An nondum vaga fama tuas pervenit ad aures
De virtute viri? moneo, ne rursus inique

330
Illius tua fata velis committere dextrae.»
Dixit, tum largis perfudit fletibus ora.
Tristis Alexander «non me superavit Atrides,
O meus ardor» ait, «sed castae Palladis ira.
Mox illum nostris succumbere turpiter armis

335
Aspicies, aderitque meo Cytherea labori.»
Post haec amplexu per mutua corpora iuncto
Incubuit membris Cygneidos; illa soluto
Accepit flammas gremio Troiaeque suasque.
Interea toto Menelaus in agmine Troum

340
Quaerit Alexandrum victorque huc fertur et illuc.
Quem frater socias acuens in bella catervas
Adiuvat et forti pulsos Phrygas increpat ore
Servarique iubet leges Helenamque reposcit.

IV
Cumque inter sese proceres certamen haberent,

345
Concilium omnipotens habuit regnator Olympi,
Foederaque intento turbavit Pandarus arcu,
Te, Menelae, petens; laterique volatile telum
Incidit et tunicam ferro squamisque rigentem
Dissecat: excedit pugna tremebundus Atrides

350
Castraque tuta petit; quem doctus ab arte paterna
Paeoniis curat iuvenis Podalirius herbis;
Atque iterum in caedes horrendaque praelia visit.
Armavit fortes Agamemnonis ira Pelasgos,
Et dolor in pugnam cunctos communis agebat.

355
Bellum ingens oritur, multumque utrimque cruoris
Funditur et totis sternuntur corpora campis;
Inque vicem Troumque cadunt Danaumque catervae.
Nec requies datur ulla viris; sonat undique Mavors,
Telorumque volant cunctis e partibus imbres.

360
Occidit Antilochi rigido demersus ad umbras
Ense Thalysiades optataque lumina linquit.
Inde manu forti Graiorum terga prementem
Occupat Anthemione satum Telamonius Aiax
Et praedurato transfixit pectora telo:

365
Purpuream vomit ille animam, cum sanguine misso,
Ora rigat moriens. tum magnis Antiphus hastam
Viribus adversum conisus corpore toto
Torquet in Aiacem: telum derravit ab hoste
Inque hostem cecidit transfixitque inguine Leucon:

370
Concidit infelix prostratus vulnere tristi
Et carpit virides moribundus dentibus herbas.
Impiger Atrides casu commotus amici
Democoonta petit teloque adversa trabali
Tempora transadigit vaginaque horridus ensem

375
Eripit; ille suis moriens resupinus in armis
Concidit et terram moribundo vertice pulsat.
Iamque Amarynciden saxi deiecerat ictu
Pirous Imbrasides dederatque silentibus umbris;
Dumque avidus praedae iuvenem spoliare parabat,

380
Desuper hasta venit dextra librata Thoantis
Perque viri scapulas annosaque pectora transit.
In vultus ruit ille suos calidumque cruorem
Ore vomit stratusque super sua palpitat arma.
Sanguine Dardanii manabant undique campi,

385
Manabant amnes passim; pugnatur ubique
[Inmixtis ardens amborum exercitus armis]
Et modo Troianis virtus, modo crescit Achivis,
Laetaque per varios petitur victoria casus.

V
Hic postquam Danaum longe cedentia vidit

390
Agmina Tydides tumidumque increscere Martem,
In medias acies, qua plurimus imminet hostis,
Inruit et versas prosternit caede phalanges:
Huc illuc ensemque ferox hastamque coruscat.
Bellica Pallas adest flagrantiaque ignibus arma

395
Adiuvat atque animos iuveni viresque ministrat.
Atque boum veluti viso grege saeva leaena,
Quam stimulat ieiuna fames, ruit agmina contra
Et prostrata necat vesano corpora dente:
Sic ruit in medios hostes Calydonius heros,

400
Virginis armigerae monitis et numine tutus.
Conversi dant terga Phryges; fugientibus ille
Instat et exstructos morientum calcat acervos.
Dumque furit sternitque viros, videt ecce Daretis
Adverso stantes fremibundus in agmine natos,

405
Phegeaque Idaeumque simul; quem cuspide Phegeus
Occupat ante gravi, sed vulnera depulit umbo
Vitatumque solo ferrum stetit: haud mora, totis
Ingentem torquet Tydides viribus hastam
Transadigitque viri pectus; pars cuspidis ante

410
Eminet, et prodit scapulis pars altera fossis.
Hunc ubi fundentem calidum de pectore flumen
Versantemque oculos animamque per ora vomentem
Conspexit frater, stricto celer advolat ense
Germanique cupit fatorum existere vindex.

415
Sed neque vim saevi nec fortia sustinet arma
Tydidae contraque tamen defendere temptat.
Ut volucris, derepta sui cum corpora nati
Accipitrem laniare videt nec tendere contra,
Auxilium nec ferre suo valet anxia nato,

420
Quodque potest, levibus plangit sua pectora pennis:
Sic hostem Idaeus germani caede superbum
Spectat atrox miseroque nequit succurrere fratri;
Et nisi cessisset, dextra cecidisset eadem.
Nec minus in Teucros armis furit alter Atrides

425
Insequiturque acies et ferro funera miscet.
Obvius huic fatis occurrit ductus iniquis
Infelix Hodius, quem vastae cuspidis ictu
Sternit et ingenti scapulas transverberat hasta.
Hinc petit Idomeneus adversa parte ruentem

430
Maeoniden Phaestum; cuius post funera Atrides
E Strophio genitum Stygias demittit ad umbras.
Meriones Phereclum vibrata percutit hasta,
Pedaeumque Meges; tum vastis horridus armis
Eurypylus gladio metuentem Hypsenora fundit

435
Et pariter vita iuvenem spoliavit et armis.
Parte alia volitat sinuoso Pandarus arcu
Tydidenque oculis inmensa per agmina quaerit.
Quem postquam Troum sternentem corpora vidit,
Horrida contento derexit spicula cornu

440
Et summas humeri destrinxit acumine partes.
Tum vero ardescit iuvenis Calydonius ira
In mediasque acies animosi more leonis
Fertur et Astynoum magnumque in Hypirona tendit:
Cominus hunc gladio, iaculo ferit eminus illum.

445
Inde premit Polyidon Abantaque cuspide forti
Et notum bello Xanthum vastumque Thoonem.
Post hos infestos Chromiumque et Echemona telo
Proturbat celeri pariterque ad Tartara mittit.
Tu quoque Tydidae prostratus, Pandare, dextra

450
Occidis, infelix, accepto vulnere tristi,
Dextera qua naris fronti coniungitur imae;
Dissipat et cerebrum galeae cum parte revulsum
Ossaque confossi spargit Tydeius ensis.
Iamque manum Aeneas simul et Calydonius heros

455
Contulerant iactisque inter se cominus hastis
Undique rimabant inimico corpora ferro
Et modo cedebant retro, modo deinde coibant.
Postquam utrique diu steterant nec vulnera magnus
Qua daret infesto Tydides ense videbat,

460
Saxum ingens, medio quod forte iacebat in agro,
Bis seni quod vix iuvenes tellure moverent,
Sustulit et magno conamine misit in hostem.
Ille ruit prostratus humi cum fortibus armis;
Quem Venus aethereas genetrix delapsa per auras

465
Excipit et nigra corpus caligine texit.
Non tulit Oenides animis nebulasque per ipsas
Fertur et in Venerem flagrantibus irruit armis
Et neque quem demens ferro petat inspicit ante
Caelestemque manum mortali vulnerat hasta.

470
Icta petit caelum terris Cytherea relictis
Atque ibi sidereae queritur sua vulnera matri.
Dardanium Aenean servat Troianus Apollo
Accenditque animos iterumque ad bella reducit.
Undique consurgunt acies et pulvere caelum

475
Conditur horrendisque sonat clamoribus aether.
Hic alius rapido deiectus in aequora curru
Proteritur pedibusque simul calcatur equorum;
Atque alius volucri traiectus pectora telo
Quadrupedis tergo pronus ruit; illius ense

480
Deiectum longe caput a cervice cucurrit;
Hic iacet exanimis fuso super arma cerebro:
Sanguine manat humus, campi sudore madescunt.
Emicat interea Veneris pulcherrima proles
Densaque Graiorum premit agmina nudaque late

485
Terga metit gladio funestaque praelia miscet.
Nec cessat spes una Phrygum fortissimus Hector
Sternere caede viros atque agmina vertere Graium.
Ut lupus in campis pecudes cum vidit apertis
Non actor gregis ipse comes, non horrida terret

490
Turba canum; fremit esuriens et neglegit omnes
In mediosque greges avidus ruit: haut secus Hector
Invadit Danaos et territat ense cruento.
Deficiunt Graiorum acies, Phryges acrius instant
Attolluntque animos: geminat victoria vires.

495
Ut vidit socios infesto cedere Marti
Rex Danaum, sublimis equo volat agmina circum
Hortaturque duces animosque in praelia firmat.
Mox ipse in medios audax se proripit hostes
Oppositasque acies stricto diverberat ense.

500
Ut Libycus cum forte leo procul agmina vidit
Laeta boum passim virides errare per herbas,
Adtollit cervice iubas sitiensque cruoris
In mediam erecto contendit pectore turbam:
Sic ferus Atrides adversos fertur in hostes

505
Infestasque Phrygum proturbat cuspide turmas.
Virtus clara ducis vires accendit Achivum,
Et spes exacuit languentia militis arma:
Funduntur Teucri, Danai laetantur ovantes.
Tandem hic Aenean inmisso tendere curru

510
Conspicit Atrides strictoque occurrere ferro
Conparat et iaculum, quantas furor ipse movebat,
Viribus intorquet, quod detulit error ab illo
Pectus in aurigae stomachoque infigitur alto:
Ille ruens ictu media inter lora rotasque

515
Voluitur et vitam calido cum sanguine fundit.
Ingemit Aeneas curruque animosus ab alto
Desilit et valido Crethonaque cominus ictu
Orsilochumque ferit, quorum post funera victus
Paphlagonum ductor Menelai concidit armis,

520
Antilochique Mydon; post hos Iovis inclita proles
Sarpedon bellum funestaque praelia miscet.
Quem contra infelix non aequis dimicat armis
Tlepolemus magno satus Hercule, sed neque vires
Hunc servare patris nec tot potuere labores,

525
Quin caderet tenuemque daret de corpore vitam.
Saucius egreditur medio certamine belli
Sarpedon, fraudisque subit commentor Ulixes
Et septem iuvenum pulcherrima corpora fundit.
Hinc pugnat patriae columen Mavortius Hector,

530
Illinc Tydides: sternuntur utrimque virorum
Corpora per campos et sanguine prata rigantur;
Pugnat bellipotens casta cum Pallade Mavors
Ingentemque movet clipeum; quem sancta virago
Egit et extrema percussum cuspide caedit

535
Attonitumque simul caelum petere inde coegit;
Hic ille aethereo queritur sua vulnera regi
Saucius et magni genitoris iurgia suffert.

VI
Interea magnis Acamantem viribus Aiax
Interimit, vastumque capit Menelaus Adrastum

540
Et rapit ad classes manibus post terga revinctis,
Ut vivo ducat laetos ex hoste triumphos.
Incumbunt Danai, cedit Troiana iuventus
Tergaque nuda tegit; sensit Mavortius Hector,
Pro Danais pugnare deos validasque suorum

545
Virginis armigerae subduci numine vires,
Continuoque petit muros Hecubamque vocari
Imperat et divae placari numina suadet.
Protinus elatas innuptae Pallados arces
Iliades subeunt: festis altaria sertis

550
Exornant caeduntque sacras ex more bidentes.
Dumque preces Hecube supplex ad templa Minervae
Pro caris genetrix natis et coniuge fundit,
Interea Glaucus stricto decernere ferro
Cum Diomede parat nomenque genusque roganti,

555
Qui sit et unde, ferus magnis cum viribus hastam
Mittere temptabat, temptanti Aetolius heros
«Quo ruis?» exclamat «quae te, scelerate, furentem
Mens agit inparibus mecum concurrere telis?
Hospitis arma vides, Veneris qui vulnere dextram

560
Perculit et summo pupugit certamine Martem.
Pone truces animos infestaque tela coherce».
Post haec inter se posito certamine pugnae
Commutant clipeos inimicaque praelia lincunt.
Colloquium petit interea fidissima coniunx

565
Hectoris Andromache parvumque ad pectora natum
Astyanacta tenet; cuius dum maximus heros
Oscula cara petit, subito perterritus infans
Convertit timidos materna ad pectora vultus
Terribilemque fugit galeam cristasque comantes.

570
Utque caput iuvenis posito detexerat aere,
Protinus infantem geminis amplectitur ulnis
Attollensque manus «precor, o pater optime» dixit,
«Ut meus hic, pro quo tua numina, natus, adoro,
Virtutes patrias primis imitetur ab annis».

VII

575
Haec ait et portis acies petit acer apertis;
Una deinde Paris. postquam in certamina ventum est,
Protinus in medium procedit maximus Hector
Graiorumque duces invictis provocat armis.
Nec mora: continuo fraudis commentor Ulixes

580
Et ferus Idomeneus et notus gente paterna
Meriones Graiumque simul dux acer Atrides
Aiacesque duo clari et speciosus in armis
Eurypylus magnoque Thoas Andraemone natus
Quique manum Veneris violavit vulnere tristi

585
Procedunt; aberat nam Troum terror Achilles
Et cithara dulci durum lenibat amorem.
Ergo ubi deiectis auratam regis Atridae
Sortibus in galeam magnus processerat Aiax,
Principio iactis committunt praelia telis,

590
Mox rigidos stringunt enses et fortibus armis
Decernunt partesque oculis rimantur apertas
Et modo terga petunt, duros modo fortibus ictus
Depellunt clipeis; ingens ad sidera clamor
Tollitur et vastis inpletur vocibus aether.
Non sic setigeri exacuunt fervoribus iras

595
Pectoribusque fremunt vastis, modo dentibus uncis
Alterni librant cladis et vulnera miscent:
Fortia terga tremunt spumantque per ora vicissim,
Fumiferae nubes concrescunt, fulgura et ignes

600
Iactantur magnoque inplentur murmure silvae:
[Talis Priamides similisque Eacides in armis.]
Tandem animis teloque furens Telamonius Aiax
Insignem bello petit Hectora, quaque patescit
Nuda viri cervix, fulgentem derigit hastam:

605
Ille ictum celeri praevidit callidus actu
Tergaque summisit ferrumque umbone repellit.
Sed levis extremas clipei perlabitur oras
Cuspis et exiguo cervicem vulnere libat.
Acrius inpugnans rursus consurgit in hostem

610
Priamides nec iam ferro Telamone creatum,
Sed magno saxi iactu petit; at ferus Aiax
Ingentem clipeo septemplice reppulit ictum
Et iuvenem saxo percussum sternit eodem.
Quem levat exceptum Grais inimicus Apollo,

615
Integrat atque animum; iam rursus ad arma coibant
Stringebantque iterum gladios, cum fessus in undas
Coeperat igniferos Titan inmergere currus
Noxque subire polum: iuxta mittuntur, utrosque
Qui dirimant a caede viros; nec segnius illi

620
Deponunt animos. tum bello maximus Hector
[«Quae te terra virum, qui te genuere parentes?
Viribus es proles generosa atque inclita» dixit.
At contra referre parat Telamonius Aiax
«Hesione de matre vides Telamone creatum,

625
Nobilis est domus et fama generosa propago».
Hector ut Hesionae nomen casusque recordat]
«Absistamus» ait, «nam vis communis utrique est»;
Et prior Aiacem deaurato munerat ense
Inque vicem, quo se bellator cinxerat Aiax,

630
Accipit insignem vario caelamine balteum.
Post haec extemplo Troum Danaumque catervae
Discedunt, caelumque tegit nox atra tenebris.
Inplentur dapibus largis Bacchique liquore
Atque avidi placido tradunt sua corpora somno.

635
Postera cum primum stellas Aurora fugarat,
In coetum venere Phryges; tunc maximus Hector
Cum sociis memorans hesternae funera caedis
Suadet ut invictis Helene reddatur Achivis
Praedaque quae duros Menelai mulceat ignes;

640
Idque placet cunctis. tum saevo missus Atridae
Pertulit Idaeus Troum mandata; neque ille
Aut animum praedae aut dictis accommodat aures,
Ultro etiam castris Idaeum excedere iussit.
Paruit is monitis iterumque ad castra reversus

645
Troica contemptum duro se reddit ab hoste.
Interea Danai confusi caede suorum
Ingentes struxere pyras collectaque passim
Fortia tradiderunt sociorum corpora flammis;
Tum renovant vires et vallum robore cingunt.

VIII

650
Ut nitidum Titan radiis patefecerat orbem,
Convocat in coetum superos Iovis et monet omnis
Ne contra sua dicta velint contendere divi.
Ipse per aethereas caeli delabitur auras
Umbrosisque simul consedit montibus Idae ;

655
Inde acies videt Iliacas dextraque potenti
Sustinet auratas aequato pondere lances
Fataque dura Phrygum casusque expendit Achivum
Et Graium clades gravibus praeponderat armis.
Interea Danaos ingenti concitus ira

660
Priamides agit et totis gravis imminet arvis,
Unum quippe decus Phrygiae; turbantur Achivi
Doricaque ingenti complentur castra tumultu.
Hortatur socios muris inclusus Atrides
Languentesque animos iuvenum in certamina firmat.

665
Princeps Tydides ardentibus emicat armis,
Per mediosque hostes inmani turbine fertur.
Hic illi occurrit fatis Agelaus iniquis,
Telum inmane manu quatiens, quem maximus heros
Occupat et duro medium transverberat ense.

670
Hinc Phrygas Aiacis vastis protectus in armis
Teucer agit spargitque leves in terga sagittas.
Gorgythiona ferum letali vulnere fundit,
Mox alias acies petit aurigamque superbi
Hectoris obtruncat. quem saxo Troius heros

675
Occupat excussoque extentum proterit arcu:
Ast illum fidi rapiunt de caede sodales
Prostratumque levant. ruit undique turbidus Hector
Adversaque acies inversas cuspide terret.
Se rursus Danai turbati caede suorum

680
Convertunt, iterumque leves in castra catervae
Confugiunt portasque obiecto robore firmant.
At Phryges obsidunt inclusos aggere Graios
Excubituque premunt muros flammisque coronant.
Cetera per campos sternunt sua corpora pubes

685
Indulgentque mero curasque animosque resolvunt.

IX
Attoniti Danaum proceres discrimine tanto
Nec dapibus relevant animos nec corpora curant,
Sed miseri sua fata gemunt. *tamen hoste repulso*
Legatos mittunt dextramque hortantur Achillis,

690
Ut ferat auxilium miseris. Thetideius heros
Nec Danaum capit aure preces nec munera regis
Ulla referre cupit; non illum redditus ignis
Aut intacta suo Briseis corpore movit:
Irrita legati referunt responsa Pelasgis.

695
[Et dapibus curant animos lenique sopore.]

X
Ulterius tenebrae tarde labentibus astris
Restabatque super tacitae pars tertia noctis,
Cum Danaum iussu castris Aetolius heros
Egreditur sociumque sibi delegit Ulixem,

700
Qui secum tacitae sublustri noctis in umbra
Scrutetur studio, quae sit fiducia Troum
Quidve agitent quantasve parent in praelia vires.
Dumque iter horrendum loca per non nota paventes
Carpebant, venit ecce Dolon, quem Troia pubes

705
Miserat, ut Danaum sollerti pectore vires
Perspiceret sensusque ducum plebisque referret.
Quem procul ut vidit socius Diomedis Ulixes,
Abdiderunt occultantes sua corpora furtim
Post densos frutices, dum spe percussus inani

710
Tros Eumediades cursu praecederet illos,
Ne facile oppressus gressum in sua castra referret.
Post ubi transierat fidens animoque manuque,
Prosiluere viri iuvenemque evadere cursu
Conantem capiunt ferroque manuque minantur.

715
Ille timore pavens «vitam concedite» dixit :
«Hoc unum satis est; quodsin perstatis in ira,
Quanta ex morte mea capietis praemia laudis?
At si cur veniam tacitis exquiritis umbris:
Maxima Troia mihi currum promisit Achillis,

720
Si vestras cepisset opes. haec dona secutus
In dubios casus, coram quod cernitis ipsi,
Infelix cecidi. nunc vos per numina divum,
Per mare, per Ditis fluctus obtestor opaci,
Ne rapere hanc animam crudeli caede velitis.

725
Haec pro concessa referetis dona salute:
Consilium Priami totam remque ordine gentis
Expediam Phrygiae». postquam quid Troia pararet
Cognovere viri, fauces mucrone recluso
Pertundunt iuveni: post haec tentoria Rhesi

730
Intrant atque ipsum somno vinoque sepultum
Obtruncant spoliantque armis fusosque per herbam
Exanimant socios; tum tristi caede peracta
Praeda umeros onerant, multo candore nitentes
Thracas equos rapiunt, quos nec praecederet Eurus

735
Nec posset volucri cursu superare sagitta.
Inde iterum Argolicas primae sub tempore lucis
Ad classes redeunt; quos Nestoris accipit aetas
Ac recipit portis. postquam sua castra tenebant,
Facta duci referunt: laudat Pelopeius heros,

740
Fessaque iucundae tradunt sua membra quieti.

XI
Lux exorta viros in pristina bella remisit,
Instaurantque animos recreato milite pugnae
Dardanidum Danaumque duces: volat undique nubes
Telorum et ferro ferrum sonat, undique flictu

745
Inter se strident mucrones: instat utrimque
Densa acies, mixtusque fluit cum sanguine sudor.
Tandem ferventi Danaum rex concitus ira
Antiphon ingenti prostratum vulnere fudit
Pisandrumque simul fratremque ad bella ruentem

750
Hippolochum; post hos gladio petit Iphidamanta.
Hic regis dextram frater ferit; ille dolore
Acrior accepto fugientem Antenore natum
Persequitur traxitque ferox cum vulnere poenas.
Hector tum pugnae subit acri concitus ira

755
Priamides et percussos agit undique Graios;
Nec Paris hostiles cessat prosternere turmas
Eurypylique femur contento vulnerat arcu.

XII
Incumbunt Troes, fugiunt in castra Pelasgi
Viribus exhaustis et vastis undique firmant

760
Obicibus muros, tum saxo Martius Hector
Perfringit portas ferrataque robora laxat.
Inrumpunt aditus Phryges atque in limine primo
Restantes sternunt Graios valloque catervas
Deturbant, alii scalas in moenia poscunt

765
Et iaciunt ignes: praebet victoria vires.
De muris pugnant Danai turresque per altas
Saxa volant, subeunt acta testudine Troes
Ascenduntque aditus et totis viribus instant.
Turbati fugiunt omnes iam castra Pelasgi

770
Et scandunt puppes; urguet Troiana iuventus
Telaque crebra iacit: resonat clamoribus aether.

XIII
Neptunus vires Danais animumque ministrat.
Pugna ingens oritur, furit istinc hostis et illinc,
Dextraque Idomenei cadit Asius; Hector atrocem

775
Amphimachum obtruncat, nec non occumbit in armis
Anchisae gener Alcathous, quem fuderat ense
Magnanimus ductor Rhytieus; tum fervidus hasta
Deiphobus ferit Ascalaphum mergitque sub umbras.

XIV
Hector ubique ferox violento pectore saevit,

780
Quem saxo ingenti percussum maximus Aiax
Reppulit et toto prostratum corpore fudit.
Concurrit Troiana manus iuvenemque vomentem
Sanguineos fluctus Xanthi lavere fluento.
Inde iterum ad pugnam redeunt, fit maxima caedes

785
Amborum, et manat tellus infecta cruore.
Polydamas valido Prothoenora percutit ictu,
Archilochumque Antenoriden Telamonius Aiax,
Boeotumque Acamas Promachum, quem sternit atrocis
Penelei dextra; inde cadit Priameia pubes.

XV

790
Acrius adsurgunt Troes; at Achaica turba,
[Instaurantque manus, cedit Pelopea iuventus]
Pulsa metu vallumque et muros aggere saeptos
Transiliunt, alii fossas volvuntur in ipsas.
Advolat interea Danaum metus impiger Hector.

795
Confugiunt iterum ad classes Agamemnonis alae
Atque inde adversis propellunt viribus hostem.
Fit pugna ante rates; saevit Mavortius Hector
Et poscit flammas totamque incendere classem
Apparat; huic validis obsistere viribus Aiax,

800
Stans prima in puppi, clipeoque incendia saeva
Sustinet et solus defendit mille carinas.
Hinc iaciunt Danai robustae cuspidis hastas,
Illinc ardentes taedas Phryges undique iactant:
Per vastos sudor pugnantum defluit artus.

XVI

805
Non valet ulterius cladem spectare suorum
Patroclus subitoque armis munitus Achillis
Provolat et falsa conterret imagine Troas.
Qui modo turbabant Danaos animoque fremebant,
Nunc trepidi fugiunt: fugientibus imminet ille

810
Proturbatque ferox acies vastumque per agmen
Saevit et ingenti Sarpedona vulnere fundit
Et nunc hos cursu nunc illos praeterit ardens
Praeliaque horrendi sub imagine versat Achillis.
Quem postquam socias miscentem caede catervas

815
Turbantemque acies respexit fervidus Hector,
Tollit atrox animos vastisque inmanis in armis
Occurrit contra magnoque haec increpat ore:
«Huc age nunc converte gradum, fortissime Achilles:
Iam nosces, ultrix quid Troica dextera possit

820
Et quantum in bello valeat fortissimus Hector.
Nam licet ipse suis Mavors te protegat armis,
Invito tamen haec perimet te dextera Marte».
Ille silet spernitque minas animosaque dicta,
Ut quem mentitur verus credatur Achilles.

825
Tunc prior intorquet collectis viribus hastam
Dardanides, quam prolapsam celere excipit actu
Patroclus redditque vices et mutua dona;
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Quod clipeo excussum viridi tellure resedit.
Tunc rigidos stringunt enses et cominus arma

830
Inter se miscent, donec Troianus Apollo
Mentitos vultus simulati pandit Achillis
Denudatque virum; quem bello maximus Hector
Pugnantem falsis postquam deprendit in armis,
Irruit et iuvenem nudato pectore ferro

835
Traicit et victor Vulcania detrahit arma.

XVII
Vindicat extincti corpus Telamonius Aiax
Oppositoque tegit clipeo. Priameia pubes
Laetitia exultat, Danai sua funera maerent.

XVIII
Interea iuvenis tristi cum pube suorum

840
Nestorides in castra ferunt miserabile corpus.
Hic Pelidae aures ut dirus verberat horror,
Palluit infelix iuvenis; calor ossa reliquit,
[Membra simul lacrimans materno nectit amictu
Deflens Aeacides tristi de caede sodalis.]

845
Unguibus ora secat, comptos dein pulvere crines
Deformat scinditque suas de pectore vestes
Et super extincti prostratus membra sodalis
Crudeles fundit questus atque oscula figit.
Mox ubi depositi gemitus lacrimaeque quierunt,

850
«Non impune mei laetabere caede sodalis,
Hector» ait, «magnoque meo, violente, dolori
Persolves poenas atque istis victor in armis,
In quibus exultas, fuso moriere cruore.»
Post haec accensus furiis decurrit ad aequor

855
Fortiaque arma Thetin supplex rogat: illa relictis
Fluctibus auxilium Vulcani protinus orat.
Excitat Aetnaeos calidis fornacibus ignes
Mulciber et validis fulvum domat ictibus aurum.
Mox effecta refert divinis artibus arma;

860
Evolat inde Thetis. quae postquam magnus Achilles
Induit, in clipeum vultus convertit atroces.
Illic Ignipotens mundi caelaverat arcem
Sideraque et liquido redimitum lumine Olympum,
Omnes et terras et cinctum Nerea circum;

865
Astrorumque vices dimensaque tempora noctis,
Quattuor et mundi partes, quantum Arctus ab Austro
Et quantum occasus roseo distaret ab ortu,
Lucifer unde suis, unde Hesperus unus uterque
Exoreretur equis, et quantus in orbe mearet
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

870
Luna cava et nitida lustraret lampade caelum;
Addideratque fretis sua numina, Nerea magnum
Oceanumque senem nec eundem Protea semper,
Fecerat et liquidas mira Nereidas arte
Tritonesque feros et amantem Dorida fluctus;

875
Terra gerit silvas horrendaque monstra ferarum
Fluminaque et montes cumque altis oppida muris,
In quibus exercent leges annosaque iura
Certantes populi; sedet illic aequus utrisque
Iudex et litem discernit fronte serena.

880
Parte alia resonant castae paeana puellae
Dantque choros molles; haec dextra tympana pulsat,
Illa lyrae graciles extenso pollice chordas
Percurrit septemque modos modulatur amoenis
Stamina componunt mundi resonantia motum.

885
Rura colunt alii, sulcant gravia arva iuvenci
Maturasque metit robustus messor aristas
Et gaudet pressis inmundus vinitor uvis;
Tondent prata greges, pendent in rupe capellae.
Haec inter mediis stabat Mars aureus armis,

890
Post quem diva potens belli; circaque sedebant
Sanguineis maestae Clotho Lachesisque quasillis.

XIX
Talibus ornatus donis Thetideius heros
In medias acies inmani turbine fertur,
Cui vires praebet casta cum Pallade Iuno

895
Dantque animos iuveni; contra Cythereius heros
Occurrit fervens; sed enim non viribus aequis,
Aeacidae nec erat conpar; tamen ira coegit
Conferre invictis iuvenem cum viribus arma.
Quem nisi servasset magnarum rector aquarum,

900
Ut profugus laetis Troiam repararet in arvis
Augustumque genus claris submitteret astris,
Non carae gentis nobis mansisset origo.
Inde agit Aeacides infesta cuspide Teucros
Ingentemque modum prosternit caede virorum,

905
Sanguinis Hectorei sitiens; at Dardana pubes
Confugit ad Xanthi rapidos perterrita fluctus
Auxiliumque petit divini fluminis; ille
Instat et in mediis bellatur gurgitis undis.
Ira dabat vires; stringuntur sanguine ripae

910
Sparsaque per totos volvuntur corpora fluctus.

XX
At Venus et Phrygiae gentis tutator Apollo
Cogunt in Danaos Xanthi consurgere fluctus,
Ut fera terribili miscentem praelia dextra
Obruat Aeaciden: qui protinus undique totis

915
Expatiatur aquis et vasto gurgite praeceps
Volvitur atque virum torrentibus inpedit undis
Praetardatque gradus; ille omni corpore saevas
Contra pugnat aquas adversaque flumina rumpit
Et modo disiectos umeris modo pectore vasto

920
Propellit fluctus. quem longe provida Iuno
Asseruit, rabidae qua cederet ictibus undae,
Sanctaque pugnarunt inter se numina divum.
Rursus agit Phrygias ingenti caede catervas
Horridus Aeacides bellique ardore resumpto

925
Funereas acies horrendaque praelia miscet.
Non illum vis ulla movet; non saeva fatigat
Pectora pugnando; vires successus adauget.
Percussi dubitant trepida formidine Troes
Atque intra muros exhausta paene salute

930
Defugiunt portasque obiecto robore firmant.

XXI
Unus tota salus in quo Troiana manebat
Hector adest, quem non durae timor undique mortis
Nec patriae tenuere preces, quin obvius iret
Et contra magnum contendere vellet Achillem.

935
Quem procul ut vidit tectum caelestibus armis,
[Ante oculos subito visa est Tritonia Pallas]
Praemetuit clausisque fugit sua moenia circum
Infelix portis; sequitur Nereius heros.
In somnis veluti, cum pectora terret imago,

940
Hic cursu super insequitur, fugere ille videtur,
Festinantque ambo; gressum labor ipse moratur:
Alternis poterant insistere coepta periclis,
Nec requies aderat: timor hinc, hinc concitat ira.

XXII
Spectant de muris miseri sua fata parentes

945
Pallentesque vident tum primum cedere natum,
Quem iam summa dies suprema luce premebat.
Huic subito ante oculos similis Tritonia fratri
Occurrens iuvenem simulato decipit ore.
Nam dum Deiphobi tutum se credidit armis,

950
Transtulit ad Danaos iterum sua numina Pallas.
Concurrunt iactis inter se cominus hastis
Invicti iuvenes: hic vastis intonat armis,
Ille hostem validum nequiquam umbone repellit;
Alternisque feros vitant congressibus ictus.

955
Sudor agit rivos, ensem terit horridus ensis,
Conlatusque haeret pede pes et dextera dextrae.
Hastam iam manibus saevus librabat Achilles
Inque virum magnis emissam viribus egit;
Quam praeterlapsam vitavit callidus Hector.

960
Exclamant Danai. contra Priameius heros
Libratum iaculum Vulcania torquet in arma.
Nec successus adest; nam duro inflectitur auro
Desiliitque mucro; gemuerunt agmina Troum.
Concurrunt iterum collatis fortiter armis

965
Inque vicem duros evitant cominus enses.
Nec sufferre valet ultra iam sorte suprema
Instantem Aeaciden defectus viribus Hector;
Dumque retrocedit fraternaque rebus in artis
Respicit auxilia et nullam videt esse salutem,

970
Sensit adesse dolos: quid agat? quae numina supplex
Invocet? et toto languescunt corpore vires
Auxiliumque negant; retinet vix dextera ferrum,
Nox oculos inimica tegit nec subvenit ullum
Defesso auxilium; pugnat moriturus et altos

975
Corde petit gemitus. instat Nereius heros
Turbatumque premit procul undique, tum iacit hastam
Et medias rigida transfixit cuspide fauces.
Exultant Danai, Troes sua funera maerent.
Tum sic amissis infelix viribus Hector

980
«En concede meos miseris genitoribus artus,
Quos pater infelix multo mercabitur auro:
Dona feres victor. Priami nunc filius orat
Te primus, dux ille ducum, quem Graecia solum
Pertimuit: si nec precibus nec vulnere victi,

985
Nec lacrimis miseri nec clara gente moveris,
Afflicti miserere patris: moveat tua Peleus
Pectora pro Priamo, pro nostro pignore Pyrrhus.»
Talia Priamides; contra quem durus Achilles
«Quid mea supplicibus temptas inflectere dictis

990
Pectora, quem possem discerptum more ferarum,
Si sineret natura, meis absumere malis?
Te vero tristesque ferae cunctaeque volucres
Diripient, avidosque canes tua viscera pascent.
Haec ex te capient Patrocli gaudia manes,

995
Si capiunt umbrae.» dum talia magnus Achilles
Ore truci iactat, vitam miserabilis Hector
Reddidit. hunc animi nondum satiatus Achilles
Deligat ad currum pedibusque exsanguia membra
Ter circum muros victor trahit: altior ipsos

1000
Fert domini successus equos. tum maximus heros
Detulit ad Danaos foedatum pulvere corpus.
Laetantur Danai, plangunt sua vulnera Troes
Et pariter corpus deflent cum funere raptum.

XXIII
Interea victor defleti corpus amici

1005
Funerat Aeacides pompasque ad funera ducit.
Ter circa tumulum miseros rapit Hectoris artus
Et varios cineri ludorum indicit honores.
Tydides cunctos curru pedibusque feroces
Aeolides superat; luctando vincitur Aiax,

1010
Cuius decepit vires Laertius astu;
Caestibus adversos cunctos superavit Epeos
Et disco fortis Polypoetes depulit omnes
Merionesque arcu; tandem certamine misso
In sua castra redit turbis comitatus Achilles.

XXIV

1015
Flent miseri amissum Phryges Hectora, totaque maesto
Troia sonat planctu; fundit miseranda querellas
Infelix Hecube saevisque arat unguibus ora;
Andromacheque suas scindit de pectore vestes,
Heu tanto spoliata viro! ruit omnis in uno

1020
Hectore causa Phrygum, ruit et defessa senectus
Afflicti miseranda patris. quem nec sua coniunx
Turbaque natorum nec magni gloria regni
Oblitum tenuit vitae, quin iret inermis
Et solum invicti castris se redderet hostis.

1025
Mirantur Danaum proceres, miratur et ipse
Aeacides animum miseri senis; ille trementes
Affusus genibus tendens ad sidera palmas
Haec ait «o Graiae gentis fortissime Achilles,
O regnis inimice meis, te Dardana solum

1030
Victa tremit pubes, te sensit nostra senectus
Crudelem nimium: nunc sis mitis semel, oro,
Et patris afflicti genibus miserere precantis
Donaque quae porto miseri pro corpore nati
Accipias; si nec precibus nec flecteris auro,

1035
In senis extremis tua dextera saeviat annis:
Saltim scaeva pater comitabor funera nati.
Non vitam mihi nec magnos concede favores
Sed funus crudele mei: miserere parentis
Et pater esse meo mitis de vulnere disce.

1040
Hectoris interitu vicisti Dardana regna,
Vicisti Priamum: sortis reminiscere victor
Humanae variosque ducum tu respice casus».
His tandem precibus grandaevum motus Achilles
Allevat a terra corpusque exsangue parenti

1045
Reddidit Hectoreum. post haec sua dona reportat.
It patriam Priamus tristisque ex more suorum
Comparat exequias supremaque funera ducit.
Tum pyra construitur, quo bis sex corpora Graium
Quadrupedesque adduntur equi currusque tubaeque

1050
Et clipei galeaeque ocreaeque Argivaque tela.
Haec super ingenti gemitu componitur Hector:
Stant circum Iliades matres manibusque decoros
Corrumpunt crines laniataque pectora plangunt:
(Illo namque rogo natorum funera cernunt.)

1055
Tollitur et iuvenum magno cum murmure clamor
Flebilis: ardebat flamma namque Ilion illa.
Inter quos gemitus laniato corpore coniunx
Provolat Andromache mediosque inmittere in ignes
Se cupit Astyanacta tenens, quam maesta suarum

1060
Turba rapit comitum; contra tamen usque resistit,
Donec conlapsae ceciderunt robora flammae
Inque leves abiit tantus dux ille favillas.
Sed iam siste gradum finemque inpone labori,
Calliope, vatisque tui moderare carinam,

1065
Remis quem cernis stringentem litora paucis.
Iamque tenens portum metamque potentis Homeri,
Pieridem comitata cohors, summitte rudentes;
Sanctaque virgineos lauro redimita capillos,
Ipsa, tuas depone lyras, ades, inclita Pallas,

1070
Tuque fave cursu vatis iam, Phoebe, peracto.

Ficini translated the whole of Plato, inter alia, into Latin. I haven't found an online version of the πολιτεία yet, but here is the first bit of his translation of Plato's Theages:

Dem. Opus habebam, o Socrates, quaedam privatim tecum communicare, siquidem otium sit, vel etiam negotium, modo non omnino magnum: velim enim mea causa otium agas. So. Equidem otiosus et alioqui sum, sed tui causa maxime. Si quid ergo dicere vis, licet. Dem. Vin secedamus hinc in proximam Iovis liberatoris porticum? So. Ut lubet. Dem. Eamus ergo, o Socrates. Omnes quidem plantae eodem se modo habere videntur et quae e terra nascuntur, animaliaque omnia et homines denique ipsi. Ut enim in plantis facillimum hoc nobis est qui terram colimus, praeparare quidem omnia antequam plantemus et ipsa etiam plantatio. Postquam vero quod plantatum est, vivit. Tunc cultus ipsius varius est et difficilis, sic et in hominibus videtur. Ex meis enim rebus caetera coniicio. Etenim haec mihi mei filii sive plantatio, seu generatio appellanda sit, omnium facillima extitit, educatio autem difficilis et plena timoris semper, maximum metum ipsius causa subeunti, fuit. Et alia quidem multa de hoc dici possent, praecipue vero cupiditas, quae huic nunc inest, vehementer me sollicitat. Est enim non ingenerosa, verum talis, ut fallere possit. Cupit enim, o Socrates, ut ipse ait, sapiens effici. Et, ut mihi videtur, populares quidem eius ac aequales in urbem venientes sermones quosdam ei replentes hunc vehementer incitaverunt, quos aemulari coepit et mihi iam pridem molestus est, volens, ut eius curam suscipiam, ac pecuniam sophistae alicui, qui ipsum sapientem reddat, persolvam. Mihi vero pecuniarum minor est cura; verum hunc existimo ob hoc eius studium in periculum non mediocre incursurum. Hactenus igitur huic obstiti, consolando, sed ubi diutius nequeo, operae pretium fore duxi, ut ei obtemperem, ne sine me frequenter cum aliis vivens corrumpatur. Nuc autem ad hoc proficiscor, ut eum alicui eorum qui sophistae existimantur, commendem. Tu igitur peropportune nobis obviam factus es, quem quidem hac in re mihi consultorem maxime cupiebam. Itaque siquid habes, quod mihi in iis, quae audisti, consulere queas, licet et expedit. So. Ceterum, o Demodoce, vulgo dicitur, consilium res sacra est et si umquam ullum aliud, hoc est imprimis de quo quaeris. Non est enim divinius aliquid, quo de quis consulere queat, quam de institutione sui atque suorum. Primum igitur conveniamus, quidnam hoc esse putemus, quo de consultamus, ne saepenumero ego quidem aliud illud existimem, tu autem aliud, ac deinde longe dissentiamus; ridiculi quidem existimem ambo et qui do et qui tu qui postulas consilium, cum nihildum consenserimus. Dem. Recte quidem mihi dicere videris, o Socrates. Itaque faciendum censeo. So. Recte, inquam, non omnino tamen recte, nam paulisper id muto: dubito enim ne forte hic adolescentulus, alia quaedam, quam quae nos rebamur, cupiat; quod si alia, nos quoque absurdius faciamus de alio consultantes. Rectissimum igitur mihi videtur, ut initium hinc sumentes, ipsum quid maxime instituat, rogemus. Dem. Optimum videtur ut dicis. So. Dic igitur mihi, quod pulchrum nomen est puero? Quo nomine ipsum vocabimus? Dem. Theages, o Socrates. So. Pulchrum, o Demodoce, et divinum filio nomen imposuisti. Sed tu dic mihi, Theages, cupisne sapiens esse? Ac dignum existimas esse, ut pater hic tuus virum inveniat, qui te sua consuetudine sapientem reddat? Theag. Cupio. So. Sapientes autem utrum vocas homines scientiam habentes, quaecumque illa sint quae scierint, necne? Theag. Scientes equidem. So. Quid igitur, nonne te pater edocuit, quae hic nobilium virorum filii docentur? Scilicet litteras, citharam pulsare, palaestram et alia certamina? Theag. Docuit. So. Putas praeterea te aliqua scientia indigere, de qua curam suscipere tui causa patrem deceat? Theag. Puto. So. Quae est igitur ipsa? Dic nobis, ut tibi gratificemur. Theag. Novit et hic, o Socrates, quoniam persaepe illi narravi, sed de industria haec nunc tecum loquitur, quasi nesciat quae cupiam; hoc enim modo et in aliis multis mecum pugnat, neque vult alicui me tradere. So. Atqui quae hactenus adversus hunc abs te dicta sunt, testibus carent; nunc autem me adhibe testem, atque coram me denuo recense. Quaenam est haec sapientia, quam appetis? Age, si cuperes eam qua homines navigia gubernant et ego te rogarem, quanam, o Theages, sapientia indigens, patri succenses, quod te his, a quibus sapiens te reddi potes, non tradat, quamnam esse responderes? Nonne gubernatoriam? Theag. Certe. So. Sin autem illius cuperes eruditum te fieri, qua currus reguntur, ac patri succenseres, ego vero rogem, quaenam ea esset, nonne aurigariam respondeas? Theag. Utique. So. Haec autem quam appetis utrum habet nomen, an non. Theag. Existimo habere. So. Utrum hic illam quidem nosti, nomen autem ignoras? Vel nomen etiam tenes? Theag. Etiam nomen. So. Dic ergo quid est. Theag. Quod aliud nomen huic congruere, o Socrates, quam sapientiae? So. Nonne etiam aurigaria, sapientia est? An ignorantia tibi videtur? Theag. Nullo modo. So. An non sapientia? Theag. Sapientia. So. Qua ad quid utimur? num qua scimus equorum iuga regere? Theag. Profecto. So. Num et ea est, qua naves gubernamus? Theag. Ea utique. So. Ea vero quam nunc optas, quaenam sapientia est, quidve eam adepti scimus gubernare? Theag. Mihi quidem videtur ea, qua scimus hominibus imperare. So. Num qua aegrotantibus? Theag. Minime. So. Ipsa enim medicina est, nonne? Theag. Est. So. At qua canentibus scimus in choris praeesse? Theag. Nequaquam. So. Musica enim est. Theag. Ita. So. Sed utrum qua certantibus praeesse? Theag. Nequaquam. So. Gymnastica enim est. Theag. Est. So. Verum qua quid facientibus, conare exprimere sic, quemadmodum superiora ego. Theag. Mihi plane videtur ea, qua his qui sunt in civitate. So. Nonne in civitate aegroti etiam sunt? Theag. Sunt quidem, sed non istis solum dico, verum omnibus qui in civitate versantur. So. Intelligo quam artem dicis. Videris enim non eam qua praeesse novimus metentibus, aut vindemiantibus, aut plantantibus, aut serentibus, aut triturantibus: ipsa enim per quam iis imperamus, agricultura est. Theag. Est. So. Neque rursus qua vel secantibus, vel perforantibus, vel polientibus, vel torno aliquid facientibus: nam haec ad fabros pertinet. Theag. Certe. So. Verum fortasse qua iis universis, et agricolis, et fabris, et artificibus omnibus, ac privatis cunctis mulieribusque et viris imperitamus, eam tu sapientiam dicis. Theag. Istam ipsam, o Socrates, iampridem dicere volebam. So. Potes dicere, an Aegisthus qui Agamemnonem apud Argos interfecit, his omnibus imperavit, quos dixisti, artificibus, privatis viris, mulieribusque universis, an aliis quibusdam? Theag. Non aliis, sed iis omnibus. So. Quid autem Peleus Aeaci filius in Phthia, nonne iisdem dominatus est? Theag. Eisdem. So. Periandrum vero Cypseli, nonne audivisti apud Corinthios imperasse? Theag. Equidem. So. Nonne eisdem in civitate sua dominatus est? Theag. Certe. So. Quid vero Archelaum Perdiccae nuper in Macedonia imperantem, num iisdem existimas dominatum? Theag. Equidem. So. Hippiam autem Pisistrati in hac urbe dominantem, quibusnam prefuisse arbitraris? Nonne eisdem? Theag. Quidni. So. Bacis vero, et Sibylla, et nostras Amphylitus, quonam pacto tibi cognominandi viderentur? Theag. Non alio, quam vatum nomine. So. Recte dicis, eodem modo conare, ut invenias quo cognomine Hippiam et Periandrum propter eundem principatum nomines. Theag. Qui vocem, quam tyrannos? So. Ergo quicunque cupit more istorum universis suis civibus imperare, tyrannidem appetit, et esse tyrannus studet? Theag. Ita videtur. So. Hanc tu optas? Theag. Videtur ex iis quae dixi. So. Sceleste, more tyranni nobis praeesse cupis? Ac iamdudum succenses patri, qui te ad aliquem tyrannidis praeceptorem non mittit? Et te Demodoce non pudet, qui cum dudum noris quid hic concupiscat, et quia quo ipsum mittas habes, artificem sapientiae illius, quam petit, facere potueris, invides, et nolis mittere? sed nunc vides. Cum vero te coram accusaverit, consultemus simul ego et tu, estne quo mittamus, ut alicuius consuetudine sapiens tyrannus efficiatur? Dem. Per Iovem, o Socrates, consultemus. Est enim, ut mihi videtur, consilio opus, et maximo. So. Sine, bone vir, interrogemus ipsum prius. Dem. Interroga. So. Quid si Euripide ad aliquid utamur, o Theages? Inquit enim ille,

lost and lost.

~D

swiftnicholas · Post by **swiftnicholas** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:21 pm

Very cool! Thanks for those selections: the translation of Homer might be a fun way to practice/play with my small Latin. Whose translation is it? When was it done?

whiteoctave · Post by **whiteoctave** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:49 pm

Carmen Homerus latinus seu Ilias latin» circa annum 65 post Christum natum Nerone vivo ab auctore ignoto - fortasse Baebio Italico - compositum est.

It was made especially famous by Baehrens' edition of 1889.

~D

Democritus · Post by **Democritus** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:02 am

whiteoctave wrote:Carmen Homerus latinus seu Ilias latin» circa annum 65 post Christum natum Nerone vivo ab auctore ignoto - fortasse Baebio Italico - compositum est.

It was made especially famous by Baehrens' edition of 1889.

Where did you find this text? I wonder if there is a Latin version of the Odyssey online somewhere.

cweb255 · Post by **cweb255** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:24 pm

You missed the point, Whiteoctave. I thought the last line would have given it away, but I guess not...

cweb255 wrote:God should have condemned Fitzgerald if only he had not made such an excellent English work, no matter how far removed from the original.

Ahem... you can read the Latin all you want, but like I said about the English reading of the Aeneid, it isn't very accurate. It is best to read it in Greek, because the others are lost...lost...

whiteoctave · Post by **whiteoctave** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:21 am

au contraire, cweb. i initially suspected you to be making the above point but then, owing to its ridiculousness, granted you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't mean that.
it is an oft voiced worry that nothing is translatable, and that recourse to the original should always be made. this is of course the best option. it is, however, by no means essential, and some of the great scholars of the renaissance familiarised themselves with a lot of Greek literature through the intermediary of Latin. faithful translations are very possible, and can when needs must be trusted. to say that anyone not reading the Bible in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek is 'lost...lost' is certainly straying from the path of reason.
further, certain Greek works now lost (in the traditional semantic sense of the word) to us only exist in Latin translation. i suppose we should avoid reading such Roman tracts to glean information about the original, since we would only find ourselves in a more 'lost' state than if we had never known of them at all?
this defeatist argument, on both epistemological and artistic terms, often reccurs in academic circles, and after rehashed debate is typically dismissed with the same resolution: if you have all the languages in question at hand - do read the said texts in the original; if not, familiarise yourself as much as possible with the text through the most reliable intermediary, and if time allows in the future learn the language in question. i would much rather have someone with superb latin be reading a close Latin rendering of the Iliad, then someone with middling Greek fumbling through it, wandering more 'lost' than your point.

~D

as for Fitzgerald, whose name you so wish to drop, why he is the 'English reading [sic]'? Further, surely things are getting pretty bizarre when you recommend with the words "Ahem... you can read the Latin all you want, but like I said about the English reading of the Aeneid, it isn't very accurate. It is best to read it in Greek, because the others are lost...lost..." that we read the Aeneid...in Greek?

cweb255 · Post by **cweb255** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:52 pm

whiteoctave wrote:it is an oft voiced worry that nothing is translatable, and that recourse to the original should always be made. this is of course the best option. it is, however, by no means essential, and some of the great scholars of the renaissance familiarised themselves with a lot of Greek literature through the intermediary of Latin. faithful translations are very possible, and can when needs must be trusted. to say that anyone not reading the Bible in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek is 'lost...lost' is certainly straying from the path of reason.

Reading a translated piece is like studying a picture of a cake. No matter how satisfied you are about how the cake looks, you'll never taste it that way. Now, if you mere purpose is just to understand the concepts, by all means, let us have another Thomas Aquinas on our hands. Go read the works in Latin and be satisfied. But then, why not just read the works in English? And if you do decide to read it in whatever translated work you have chosen, how sure are you that the text is accurate enough if you can't even read the original? With translations, you are also prone to lose much of the textual allusions, or with a bad enough translator, you also lose many literary allusions. What if the inverted order was symbolic, but doesn't make sense in English? How exactly do you translate men...de...? autem...autem...? The best way to do so of course is men...de... the way it was written.

whiteoctave wrote:further, certain Greek works now lost (in the traditional semantic sense of the word) to us only exist in Latin translation. i suppose we should avoid reading such Roman tracts to glean information about the original, since we would only find ourselves in a more 'lost' state than if we had never known of them at all?

Equivocation Fallacy, and Strawman while we're at it.

whiteoctave wrote:this defeatist argument, on both epistemological and artistic terms, often reccurs in academic circles, and after rehashed debate is typically dismissed with the same resolution: if you have all the languages in question at hand - do read the said texts in the original; if not, familiarise yourself as much as possible with the text through the most reliable intermediary, and if time allows in the future learn the language in question. i would much rather have someone with superb latin be reading a close Latin rendering of the Iliad, then someone with middling Greek fumbling through it, wandering more 'lost' than your point.

Only a quitter would choose to mediate the text via a second source. His question was that should he become a Latin and Greek scholar, meaning he has time for both (or so he implies)? And I answered that it is necessary for him to do so. And you reply with attacks, vulgar and base attacks, preaching that I'm coming to warn everyone not to read any of the translations. How thoughtless of you, but it figures. Everyone has an opinion, even those not intelligent enough to have one. I guess you can have one too.

cweb255 · Post by **cweb255** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:56 pm

as for Fitzgerald, whose name you so wish to drop, why he is the 'English reading [sic]'? Further, surely things are getting pretty bizarre when you recommend with the words "Ahem... you can read the Latin all you want, but like I said about the English reading of the Aeneid, it isn't very accurate. It is best to read it in Greek, because the others are lost...lost..." that we read the Aeneid...in Greek?

Read carefully fulling utilizing your logic.

"Ahem... you can read the Latin all you want"
what you immediately posted prior to this was Latin translations of the Greek works.

"but like I said about the English reading of the Aeneid"
a side parallel likening the Aeneid to the current subject, the Greek works

"it isn't very accurate. It is best to read it in Greek, because the others are lost...lost..."
is still the subject of the thought: Greek works!

whiteoctave · Post by **whiteoctave** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:07 pm

dear cweb, many thanks for your reply, divided (one must presume) so as to make sugar the pill of your acerbic wit. so, with hysteron proteron:

i read your words, "carefully fulling utilizing [my] logic"[?!] as best as I could. i should stress that an important aspect of writing English entails a sound knowledge of both punctuation and deixis, among other things. i therefore read your quote
"Ahem... you can read the Latin all you want, but like I said about the English reading of the Aeneid, it isn't very accurate. It is best to read it in Greek, because the others are lost...lost..."
as both of these matters guided me. to have but following a comma and with like adjoined to the but without punctuation is to take the verb 'isn't' in its own clause. this has to be the case with what you have written. accordingly, the pronoun 'it', in spite of the now rogue comma preceding it, must reasonably be construed as anaphoric towards the Aeneid. this being so, the 'it' of the following sentence has the same referent and the resultant sense is that the Aeneid should be read in Greek. had your point been made more clearly, i wouldn't have highlighted upon this rather tired argument.

as for what you said in the former instalment - much the better one - (in spite of your monstrous suggestion, whether serious or not, to render μ/εν...δέ...as autem...autem?!), i agree with most of what you say. indeed, had you read my last post (for you appear to have simply pasted it), this would be evident to you. one must ensure, if they do not have the original language under their belt, that the translated text they have is reliable. "oh but they won't know if it is, because they won't know the original language!". quite the sophism, cweb. maybe they could, perish the thought, use the advice of someone who did?

as for your logically sparkling rebuttal "Equivocation Fallacy, and Strawman while we're at it" - how could one form a counterargument against it?

"Only a quitter would choose to mediate the text via a second source."
as i say, i hope your Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek are fluent, and have been since your first acquaintance with the Bible - for we wouldn't want a "quitter" in our midst would we? if your argument concerns sources themselves, our knowledge of the ancient world would be hilariously sparce if we did not give credit to secondary (not to mention tertiary, quaternary etc.) testimonies.

never have i doubted that it is best (quod nemo nescit) to secure a firm knowledge with the text in its original language. my qualms with your own stance arose from the black and white distinction that certain people, yourself included, love to make. translations cannot be yoked into one fallacious set, some are renowned for their uerbatim rendering of the original, others for their own artistic innovation; to equate the two schools would be utter nonsense.

i presume, perhaps wrongly, that you have first hand experience of comparing the quality of ancient translations - and have read, say, Cat.66 in tandem with Callimachus' Coma Berenices, or what survives thereof? or some of Cicero's direct Latin renderings? if so, then you seem rather misguided in suggesting that ancient translations from one language to the other were inaccurate; if not, then how can you have an informed argument?

never have i doubted that it is best to secure a firm grounding in Latin AND Greek in order to become a successful scholar of both languages and their literature. the reason i joined this merry thread was your bold assertion as follows:

"To truly become the academic scholar in Classics, which I presume you are talking about, since we no longer have any Latin works of the Greek, you need to become proficient in both languages. Only when you can read the Republic in Latin and Politeia in Greek will you have mastered them."

firstly i showed that your statement about Latin works is untrue. secondly i objected to the arbitrary choice of two frankly very easy Latin and Greek works as works significant of one's linguistic mastery. i would have objected to the main point - that one needs to be a master in both languages "to truly [sic] become the academic scholar", had i been bothered. Housman, one of the greatest Classical scholars of all time, was firmly of the opinion - despite excelling in both languages until his 30s - that one can in our modern days only achieve true Classical excellence if they devote themselves to one language. some great minds have challenged this since AEH, and some continue to do so; some have conceded and enriched their expertise to the goal of a single linguistic culture. i am sure you know all about this.

"How thoughtless of you, but it figures. Everyone has an opinion, even those not intelligent enough to have one. I guess you can have one too."

quite.

~D

cweb255 · Post by **cweb255** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:05 pm

whiteoctave wrote:dear cweb, many thanks for your reply, divided (one must presume) so as to make sugar the pill of your acerbic wit.

That or I missed the final paragraph of your last post...

per iocum, mi amice.

i read your words, "carefully fulling utilizing [my] logic"[?!] as best as I could.

Eheu, it seems as though I confuse you with the enigmatic antecedent. Therefore let me assure you that I am pleased. No, in all actuality, I'll try to be more careful with the thought process - and maybe make use of dashes to show (or maybe even parantheses) to show thoughts apart from the main thought - unless I confuse you (or really anyone else who reads this) again. With that in mind...

i should stress that an important aspect of writing English entails a sound knowledge of both punctuation and deixis, among other things. i therefore read your quote
"Ahem... you can read the Latin all you want, but like I said about the English reading of the Aeneid, it isn't very accurate. It is best to read it in Greek, because the others are lost...lost..."
as both of these matters guided me. to have but following a comma and with like adjoined to the but without punctuation is to take the verb 'isn't' in its own clause. this has to be the case with what you have written. accordingly, the pronoun 'it', in spite of the now rogue comma preceding it, must reasonably be construed as anaphoric towards the Aeneid. this being so, the 'it' of the following sentence has the same referent and the resultant sense is that the Aeneid should be read in Greek. had your point been made more clearly, i wouldn't have highlighted upon this rather tired argument.

notatum bene

as for what you said in the former instalment - much the better one - (in spite of your monstrous suggestion, whether serious or not, to render μ/εν...δέ...as autem...autem?!),

It wasn't my suggestion but Jerome's, well, in a way. See: Vulgatus

i agree with most of what you say. indeed, had you read my last post (for you appear to have simply pasted it), this would be evident to you. one must ensure, if they do not have the original language under their belt, that the translated text they have is reliable. "oh but they won't know if it is, because they won't know the original language!". quite the sophism, cweb. maybe they could, perish the thought, use the advice of someone who did?

Why does everything have to be so black and so white? Just because I urge these students to greet the challenges in learning the original languages doesn't mean that when they can't, or when time doesn't permit, that they should not under any circumstances be allowed to view the contents in *gasp* their fluent tongue. Not at all, my friend, and I thought most should be able to evince that from me. However, I do advocate that one should make, if one is allowed, to read the material in the original language, or closest language possible. Remember, he did mention academia, and in academia, we simply don't have time not to read it in such.

as for your logically sparkling rebuttal "Equivocation Fallacy, and Strawman while we're at it" - how could one form a counterargument against it?

By not making up my position, nor by incorrectly comparing, to use the parlance of our time, apples to oranges. If all one wants to do is to examine the picture of the cake, then by all means, examine away! But you'll never taste it. (Do you understand the analogy here, or shall I delve further into this?)

"Only a quitter would choose to mediate the text via a second source."
as i say, i hope your Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek are fluent, and have been since your first acquaintance with the Bible - for we wouldn't want a "quitter" in our midst would we? if your argument concerns sources themselves, our knowledge of the ancient world would be hilariously sparce if we did not give credit to secondary (not to mention tertiary, quaternary etc.) testimonies.

I would only be classified as a quitter if I gave up learning Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic and decided to read the Bible in, say, Latin? If and when such a time occurs, you can aptly label me such. Until then, I'll stick with the books, as I learn the material and try to struggle though the contents until I can master it, until I can read it in Hebrew perfectly understanding all words. Have you read the Septuagint? Sure, you can understand quite well that David cried out to God asking him why did he forsake him. That much is understandable. But in doing so you have lost the entire beauty of the poem, forgoing hearing the sounds "Eli! Eli! Lama azavtani!" It sends chills down one's spine. That, my friend, is tasting the cake.

never have i doubted that it is best (quod nemo nescit) to secure a firm knowledge with the text in its original language. my qualms with your own stance arose from the black and white distinction that certain people, yourself included, love to make. translations cannot be yoked into one fallacious set, some are renowned for their uerbatim rendering of the original, others for their own artistic innovation; to equate the two schools would be utter nonsense.

Eck! How do I hate the way some people write their v's as u's. Might as well make the i's j's. But to the point. If you recall, I mentioned how God should have damned Fitzgerald for his rendering of the Aeneid if it were not such a great English literary work. But I took a guess and thought that the opening poster wasn't particularly interested in English literature, so I took my position as thus.

i presume, perhaps wrongly, that you have first hand experience of comparing the quality of ancient translations - and have read, say, Cat.66 in tandem with Callimachus' Coma Berenices, or what survives thereof? or some of Cicero's direct Latin renderings? if so, then you seem rather misguided in suggesting that ancient translations from one language to the other were inaccurate; if not, then how can you have an informed argument?

I'm getting there, but then again, how can you retain both the accuracy of a text and it's native construction? Once again, let me direct you to the LXX...

never have i doubted that it is best to secure a firm grounding in Latin AND Greek in order to become a successful scholar of both languages and their literature. the reason i joined this merry thread was your bold assertion as follows:

"To truly become the academic scholar in Classics, which I presume you are talking about, since we no longer have any Latin works of the Greek, you need to become proficient in both languages. Only when you can read the Republic in Latin and Politeia in Greek will you have mastered them."

firstly i showed that your statement about Latin works is untrue. secondly i objected to the arbitrary choice of two frankly very easy Latin and Greek works as works significant of one's linguistic mastery. i would have objected to the main point - that one needs to be a master in both languages "to truly [sic] become the academic scholar", had i been bothered. Housman, one of the greatest Classical scholars of all time, was firmly of the opinion - despite excelling in both languages until his 30s - that one can in our modern days only achieve true Classical excellence if they devote themselves to one language. some great minds have challenged this since AEH, and some continue to do so; some have conceded and enriched their expertise to the goal of a single linguistic culture. i am sure you know all about this.

I'm sorry, but how else do you spell truly? As for the rest of the dribble, er...I mean thought, all I have to say is that Housman took the cake and then advised others not to eat it. Maybe he didn't like chocolate? However, even your own bias bores through this, as you note that he was one of the greatest classical scholars yet was expert in both Greek and Latin.

"How thoughtless of you, but it figures. Everyone has an opinion, even those not intelligent enough to have one. I guess you can have one too."

quite.

~D

Wow! I'm surprised that you actually didn't read an insult into this. I got to thinking this morning that you might report this based on this quote, but you proved true. Congratulations are in order.

Kindest Regards,

Chris

whiteoctave · Post by **whiteoctave** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:26 pm

painful reading indeed.

with your quote "Eck! How do I hate the way some people write their v's as u's. Might as well make the i's j's. "

If A does B, then A should do not-B. v and j are both fallacies arising from consonantal usage.

this is the paragon of misconception and idiocy, and so serves as an apt summary of the above argument, which i am quite happy for you to continue on your own.

until the next trifle!

~D

cweb255 · Post by **cweb255** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:53 pm

It's also sarcasm, and not a serious argument against your reason. Have fun! But tell me, why was it "painful reading"?

Episcopus · Post by **Episcopus** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:13 pm

The v and j are indeed fallacies but D'Ooge used them and it is now my habit. I also feel quite odd if I write a word like ui instead of vi. It looks foreign to me and quite rude (wee). And jam just looks like jam dat ju eat. Strawberry jam dududum weewee ii didididido litteras. As we are naturally shallow creatures for example in the respect of the (I hope) OPPOSITE sex, aesthetics must come into it. Otherwise you end up with latin as the above, which DOES jump about in my head whenever I see jam, ui, uir etc.

Eureka · Post by **Eureka** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:55 pm

If you're going to worry about V and U, I and J, then you might as well demand that Ω and Η be replaced by O and E, and Ψ and Ξ be replaced by ΦΣ and ΧΣ in all Attic texts. (Of course this becomes more fun when you demand that all texts be written in their regional alphabets.)

But why make things more difficult than they need to be? (If it was up to me, I'd put vowel-length markers on all texts.)

1%homeless · Post by **1%homeless** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:32 am

Hmm... I mostly encountered "V" in Latin inscriptions... I was always curious why the Oxford Latin dictionary use "u" instead of "v"...

Even the site omniglot uses a "v"... when I look at the etruscan alphabet, it also uses a "v". So what is the true graphical chronology of these two letters?

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/latin.htm

From wikipedia:
"V stood for both u and v."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet

It seems like this is a popular fallacy...

Democritus · Post by **Democritus** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:21 am

Eureka wrote:If you're going to worry about V and U, I and J, then you might as well demand that Ω and Η be replaced by O and E, and Ψ and Ξ be replaced by ΦΣ and ΧΣ in all Attic texts.

I always kind of liked Latin with all the bells and whistles: i, j, u, v. But I guess I also like the variety of seeing different flavors of Latin too, sometimes with all i's and sometimes with all u's, etc.

I'm learning Chinese characters now and it makes my head hurt.

If only Chinese just had a handful of variant glyphs.

I always imagine that if the Romans invade, then they will first seek out and slay us folks who write Latin with u's and v's. I wonder if they will have a word for that crime.

mingshey · Post by **mingshey** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:50 am

Democritus wrote: I always imagine that if the Romans invade, then they will first seek out and slay us folks who write Latin with u's and v's. I wonder if they will have a word for that crime.

vari-vav-ismvs or uari-uau-ismus ?

cweb255 · Post by **cweb255** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:00 am

The "E" for the "H" is wrong, though I'll give you the omega and the omicron should be the same, but eta and epsilon were two different letters originally, and thus reflect an older tradition, like writing color instead of colour, the older tradition, color, is now the standard in America opposed to the base and vulgar colour based off of coleur en Francais. It just depends on how far back you want to go. How did Plato write it down? Does it really matter?

And by god people, it was sarcasm.

Eureka · Post by **Eureka** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:47 am

cweb255 wrote:And by god people, it was sarcasm.

It better be.

*shakes fist angrily*

chad · Post by **chad** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:40 pm

hi, i'm not sure where this thread is going

but to throw in my cent, in greek inscriptions from the agora and other places epsilon is regularly used to write eta, and i've seen omicron used to write the diphthong ou and i think the long vowel omega as well. and this is in the standard formula at the beginning of official decrees.

does anyone know when the greek spelling became "regular"? is it just a regularity imposed by modern editors, or were the manuscripts regular but not inscriptions, or something else? thanks

swiftnicholas · Post by **swiftnicholas** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:16 am

For those graphic purists out there.

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/iliad_arthur.pdf