Gay Alexander?

[Geoff]

The Greeks are angry about Hollywood's Alexander.

Oliver Stone has a propensity for the silver screen shockers. This is as good a forum as any to let the truth about Alexander fly.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/sto ... TR&coview=

So which is it? Is Stone making more out of this than there is, less of it than there is, or is his movie historically acurate in detail capturing the true character of Alexander and his times?

[benissimus]

This organization's intentions are obviously malicious. If it were a simple case of inaccurate film-making, people wouldn't really care, but since it involves homosexuality they are deeply angered. Does Alexander really need people to come up and defend him? No, they just don't want people to think that Greece is full of bisexuals, even though everyone knows it was. I don't know anything about Alexander, and I doubt they do either. This movie ought to be twice as gay though, just to make up for the omission in Troy (slight sarcasm).

[Rhuiden]

I watched a show about Alexander on the History Channel last week and they also said that he may have had male "companions". I was very suprised because I had never heard that before and I was not aware that it was also in the Stone movie. Interesting....

Rhuiden

[classicalclarinet]

Hehe silly lawyers. I beleive (:from History Channel) historical records show Alexander went into really deep greiving when his closest friend died, in my opinion undue for even a mere non-romantic friend.

Edit: 2 posts while I
was typing. Benissimus is right: everuone who studies these sfuff knows it was a lot different back in those days.

[Eureka]

Hehe silly lawyers. I beleive (:from History Channel) historical records show Alexander went into really deep greiving when his closest friend died, in my opinion undue for even a mere non-romantic friend.

Yes, I think he said something like, "They (everyone else) love me because of what I am. He loved me because of who I am."

Anyway, it would be good if they do take it to court. The court would have to find that he was gay. (A bit like Oscar Wilde...) The court might also find that he wasn't actually Greek. hehehe

[annis]

Um. They want to force people to put a notice on a movie saying it's a work of fiction?! Bwaaahaahaahaa!

Since it's Greek lawyers indulging in this silliness, I'm now laying odds that in response to this post a few partisans of the Macedon vs. Greece debate will join up just to further that tedious argument. 6:5 in favor.

[Bert]

Um. They want to force people to put a notice on a movie saying it's a work of fiction?! Bwaaahaahaahaa!

They do in books! At least it lets an ignorant fella, like me, know whether the story is total fiction, if the main characters are historical but the story around it is fictional, or if the story as a whole is intended as a portrayal of history.

[annis]

They do in books! At least it lets an ignorant fella, like me, know whether the story is total fiction, if the main characters are historical but the story around it is fictional, or if the story as a whole is intended as a portrayal of history.

Well, I'd say the presence or absence of the word "documentary" is the equivalent of finding a book in the History or the Fiction section.

The problem with Alexander is that all our remainng sources about him seem to be written by people with strong opinions. There's probably good sanction for the bisexual thing; at the very least, the notion isn't as absurd as our energetic lawyers seem to think.

Maybe I should pull my Anabasis (Arrian's about Alexander in India, not Xenophon's) off the shelf again some day soon.

[1%homeless]

Um... so to modern Greeks, is any ancient Greek homosexual/bisexual? I'm highly curious what Modern Greece history textbooks are like...

[Eureka]

Since it's Greek lawyers indulging in this silliness, I'm now laying odds that in response to this post a few partisans of the Macedon vs. Greece debate will join up just to further that tedious argument. 6:5 in favor.

Do we have any Macedonians here?

[Geoff]

Its strange that this kind of hoopla can result from this film. There are plenty of other agenda based films to rant and rave about. Stone is a master at crafting these controversies.

Indeed, history and culture suggests that Alexander was bisexual; He was also a drunk and had quite a temper. Why should anyone run to his defense as a paragon of morality?

On the other hand, is there direct evidence that this played a key role in his life and accomplishments? If not why play it up in the film?

I think this is just an attention getter from Stone. Who would have gone to see the picture thinking it was going to be some great history class anyhow? Might as well watch John Wayne's version of the Alamo rather than read anything else for Texas History.

[bingley]

For a reasonable discussion of the whole was he/wasn't he thing, see: http://www.pothos.org/alexander.asp?paraID=42

[annis]

This whole brouhaha has produced just masses of articles. It even got the classics-l people to stop savaging each other for a while.

For me personally, it has simply expanded my Greek vocabulary in interesting directions.

[mingshey]

Maybe I should pull my Anabasis (Arrian's about Alexander in India, not Xenophon's) off the shelf again some day soon.

Since dollar is getting cheaper and cheaper these days, methinks I could some day get, from my wife, the permission I need to buy books overseas. Harry Potter in AG, Arrian's Anabasis, Intensive Greek Course, etc. etc. , and contribute to textkit.

[Kasper]

It's a bit late to join this discussion, but as I'm just reading Vergil's eclogues, I'd like to add that apparently at the very least half of all Roman shephards were clearly gay. And homosexuals.

[annis]

It's a bit late to join this discussion, but as I'm just reading Vergil's eclogues, I'd like to add that apparently at the very least half of all Roman shephards were clearly gay. And homosexuals.

Theocritus set the stage for that with his bucolics. Evidently in his part of the Greek world shepherds had time for poetry contests. Erudite poetry contests, often about love.

[Kasper]

Evidently in his part of the Greek world shepherds had time for poetry contests. Erudite poetry contests, often about love.

They spend a worrying amount of time playing with each others' "flutes".

[mingshey]

hmmm that must had been 'classical flutes'...

[classicalclarinet]

Interesting....

Anyone here going to see the movie?
I was, but I've read horrible reviews on it and so now I don't know.

[Eureka]

Interesting....

Anyone here going to see the movie?
I was, but I've read horrible reviews on it and so now I don't know.

I saw a clip, and the acting was terrible. I'll give it a miss.

[mingshey]

Year 2004 began with the teaser of Troy, middled with Olypic games in Athens, and now closing with Alexander. A momorable year for Greece. And they got the Euro 2004 cup.

I missed Troy on the screen and going to watch it on video. It's been much said it contradics the epic in several ways. But I think I should at least watch it to see how they reconstructed the Greek army and one thousand triremes on the sea, the wooden horse, etc. Once you see it and forget the story, you can use the visual impressions for your own imagination when you read the classics thereafter.
Whatever people may say, I'm going to watch Alexander. And we all know Greeks were half homosexual. Though Macedonians might have not been.

[annis]

They spend a worrying amount of time playing with each others' "flutes".

Huh. Evidently Vergil's shorter works are more lively than I had been led to believe.

[Eureka]

For a reasonable discussion of the whole was he/wasn't he thing, see: http://www.pothos.org/alexander.asp?paraID=42

This seems to be to be a description of the idealised view of how a Greek should act, rather than an accurate description of common practice. After all, most homosexual Greek men would not have been in the financial position to act as sugar daddies to adolescent Greek boys.


However, that is beside the point, because Hephaistion was below Alexander socially. The eromenos did not have to be as low as a servant-boy or slave. (In fact, with a social gap that large, I’d be surprised if the word eromenos was used at all.) Hephaistion, like Patroclos, was very high up in his society, but that doesn't mean they were incapable of being eronomoi, because their suspected lovers were princes. The fact that Hephaistion laid a wreath at Patroclos’ tomb while Alexander laid a wreath at Achilles’ all but proves that they were lovers, in my opinion, because regardless of whether Homer intended Achilles and Patroclos to be lovers, they were in popular opinion by then.

[bingley]

For a reasonable discussion of the whole was he/wasn't he thing, see: http://www.pothos.org/alexander.asp?paraID=42

This seems to be to be a description of the idealised view of how a Greek should act, rather than an accurate description of common practice. After all, most homosexual Greek men would not have been in the financial position to act as sugar daddies to adolescent Greek boys.

I think that in theory, at any rate, the arrangement was supposed to be one of mentor and apprentice rather than the more financial one you seem to be supposing. Indeed, that would lay the younger partner open to suspicion of being a prostitute, which in Athens could lead to loss of civil rights.

However, that is beside the point, because Hephaistion was below Alexander socially. The eromenos did not have to be as low as a servant-boy or slave. (In fact, with a social gap that large, I’d be surprised if the word eromenos was used at all.) Hephaistion, like Patroclos, was very high up in his society, but that doesn't mean they were incapable of being eronomoi, because their suspected lovers were princes. The fact that Hephaistion laid a wreath at Patroclos’ tomb while Alexander laid a wreath at Achilles’ all but proves that they were lovers, in my opinion, because regardless of whether Homer intended Achilles and Patroclos to be lovers, they were in popular opinion by then.

The thing is though, did they actually lay the wreaths or is this a later addition to their story? It's only found in Arrian.

[Eureka]

I think that in theory, at any rate, the arrangement was supposed to be one of mentor and apprentice rather than the more financial one you seem to be supposing. Indeed, that would lay the younger partner open to suspicion of being a prostitute, which in Athens could lead to loss of civil rights.

That's true, but whether it's money or education, the problem remains that most homosexual Greeks wouldn't have had the means to aquire an eromenos.

The thing is though, did they actually lay the wreaths or is this a later addition to their story? It's only found in Arrian.

That's a good point.

[annis]

Once again, William is moved to produce Gk. verse. The classics-l crowd was discussing Alexander (of course), as well as pondering what exactly it means to be "conquered by Hephaestion's thighs." I sent them this:

συνδικέουσιν  )αλεξάνδρῳ ταχὺ μηροκρατήτῳ,   μὴ μακεδὼν ἄρξῃσ’, (ελλάδος ἔκγονα νῦν.

(I'm pushing a bit hard on agreement: ἔκγονα συνδικέουσιν.)

The classicists have said nothing, even about my lovely new word, μηροκράτητος "ruled by thighs."

An artist is never appreciated in his own time.

[demetri]

Since it's Greek lawyers indulging in this silliness, I'm now laying odds that in response to this post a few partisans of the Macedon vs. Greece debate will join up just to further that tedious argument. 6:5 in favor.

Do we have any Macedonians here?

How could we? There are none now.

[Kasper]

Since it's Greek lawyers indulging in this silliness, I'm now laying odds that in response to this post a few partisans of the Macedon vs. Greece debate will join up just to further that tedious argument. 6:5 in favor.

Do we have any Macedonians here?

How could we? There are none now.

There's a few in Macedonia...

[Lupus minimus]

macedonians at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/mk.html

I heard the Greeks are gonna carve a huge statue of Alexander the great on a mountain - kinda like Mt Rushmore. Macedonia does not think too kindly of that.

jc

[mingshey]

Languages:

Macedonian 68%, Albanian 25%, Turkish 3%, Serbo-Croatian 2%, other 2%

Is (modern, of course) Macedonian very different from Greek?

[1%homeless]

Is (modern, of course) Macedonian very different from Greek?

Actually there's two types of Macedonian, Slavic Macedonian (Modern) and ... Ancient Macedonian which is...? Anyway, Modern Macedonian did not evolve from ancient Macedonian. But then again, someone from Macedonia might refute that statement....

[Eureka]

Once again, William is moved to produce Gk. verse. The classics-l crowd was discussing Alexander (of course), as well as pondering what exactly it means to be "conquered by Hephaestion's thighs."

Who wrote that?


(I presume that's a quote from a Greek historian.)

[demetri]

Is (modern, of course) Macedonian very different from Greek?

Actually there's two types of Macedonian, Slavic Macedonian (Modern) and ... Ancient Macedonian which is...? Anyway, Modern Macedonian did not evolve from ancient Macedonian. But then again, someone from Macedonia might refute that statement....

Actually your post probably points to the key to the entire brouhaha. Modern Macedonian is almost indistinquishable from Bulgarian; and THAT is important to bear in mind.
There are plenty of modern Hellenic online sites defending ancient Macedonian as a crude Greek dialect, but Greek nonetheless. As the ancients pretty much defined "Greece", or being Greek, as any area where Greek was spoken, I have no desire to argue the merits of that point.
After the ancient Macedonians foolishly challenged Rome and thereby lost all of Greece to Rome, the Hellenic region including Macedonia became just another Roman province. Skipping a lot of history...
About 900 years later the Slavic-speakers invade the region (then part of Eastern Empire) including old Macedonia and the rest of the Grecian mainland. They settled among the 'Romans' of the area (Greeks and Hellenized other folk). Shortly thereafter the Turkic people -the Bulgars invaded and settled among the "Romans" in an area encompassing Bulgaria of today AND most of what has become the new so-called Republic of Macedonia. The Bulgars culturally became Slavs - language, religion, etc. Their area was as much a polyglot ethnos as Greece was (is).
When the Ottomans conquered the area (we'll call Ottoman Europe), the entire Balkan pennisula (a modern term not existing prior to 19th Century) became known ethnically as "Rumeli" - Turkish for "Roman". The inhabitants (Greeks, Slavs, and others) refered to themselves as "Romans" or more usually "Christians".
Insert here Balkan Wars history ...
After WWI, the breakup of Ottoman Europe created Yugoslavia (Serbian portion attained some autonomy earlier). Part of Yugoslavia had been the western section of Bulgaria. In 1943, Tito re-created the region of "Macedonia" using the ancient Greek name. This region was meant to assuage the ethnic tensions created when so many Slavized Bulgars (and "Bulgazied" Slavs) found themselves outside of Bulgaria. The western 25% of this new Macedonia included an ethnic Albanian area (whose population was separated from "Albania"). They agitate today for re-union with Albania - can't blame them.
My very few Slavic Macedonian friends take great umbrage at this Bulgarian connection. I understand this. The ethnos of the entire region defies nice, neat little map lines.
Back to the beginning...all Slavic languages are similar, but Macedonian and Bulgarian are just too close; close enough in fact to lend credence to my take on history.
As to whether Alexander was "gay"? Well, probably no more so than any other Hellene of the day...(yep).

Demetri

[annis]

Once again, William is moved to produce Gk. verse. The classics-l crowd was discussing Alexander (of course), as well as pondering what exactly it means to be "conquered by Hephaestion's thighs."

Who wrote that?

(I presume that's a quote from a Greek historian.)

Actually, some Cynic philosopher wrote this. Unfortunately I didn't keep the email from the person who hunted down the reference in the TLG, and the list archives on the topic have defeated me.

[Yhevhe]

Heh... this has made me think... if someone just loves this ancient greek thingies, and learns a lot of greek stuff, and read greek books, and likes greek art, and history, and mythology.... then he will end up gay?

Maybe I should test this in the lab...