What do you Guys think, like

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Episcopus
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What do you Guys think, like

Post by Episcopus »

This is the boring background story (you probably want to skip this, it's pathetic):

A few days ago I told my German teacher about how useless the 3 years of German had been. I hesitated on several occasions to word it in a less pungent manner and did it somewhat successfully, since she is a very nice person and I do doubt that she realise her class to be seriously poor at German. When I say poor I mean something that I doubt any of you proper classicists to believe. I mean, after 3 years of 3 hours per week, only I can say without errors "I can go to school".

She argued that all grades did not go below A last year, but I angrily countered that harshly by saying "But all the written work and oral work is memorized" (50% of the final mark). The exams are stupidly easy. Well, some of the texts at the end of the Reading papers can become difficult but the questions do not demand anything but the knowledge of some simple words. The listening test is a joke. She said that she has to do that because she does not have enough time. This was just wrong. She has just given us past question papers for 6 months straight. I learned Latin in that time. I am reading some Virgil and Horace now.
When one compares it's a disgrace.

She said that all in the class would not be able to handle the difficulty of German. Well, they should not have chosen German, and I said that the Grammar (of which we have been taught absolutely nothing) was absolutely necessary. She just agreed that grammar was important but couldn't teach any of it. Then some ugly ginger girls with absolutely no idea started saying "OO it would confuse us". "Yes it probably would".
Then they said "If you want to learn grammar do it in your own time", but I know it now, I just lack vocabulary for want of any thought at all for German. I gave it up 2 months into the course, learned all the tenses, knew it to be sufficient for me to rule despite my discontent, and began to talk to Chi Hao Li about chinese characters. Now I just practise my chinese since a longtime. She can't say anything because I take stupid marks like 99% with no memorizing (you do have to use all tenses varied structures etc.). It's not good though, for in french I can say whatever I want but my german is extremely restricted.

It's uncanny that, when I use complex conditionals capable of 3 verbs at the end of a sentence just ordered correctly by some fragments of instinct for the language (I'm usually pathetic) , the teacher praises it so much and says it to be perfect, yet that doesn't incite her to even try to teach anything. Do you know, nobody knows at all what a "case" is, let alone decline anything! The Currywurst on the wall could decline more.
It's funny to ask the stupid girls in the class, who think themselves to be good just because they will have a grade that represents a knowledge not possessed by them, what be a case. "Wha'"? Yes you just continue. And have a shave.

I believe that she has done it all wrong, focusing on that little controlled black ink stain rather than knowledge. What a waste of life. I am confident that I am right, that I have reason in thinking that, if a language possesses cases, they must be taught. They can not be avoided. If they have a different word order this must be taught. How else can any one communicate? Nobody can really. With vocabulary I could. But my German is tarnished.

So next year I will battle this evil language, easier than Latin, harder than a host of other modern languages. I will teach myself. Within 6 months I shall be fluent. If only some one as a guardian angel had whispered to me 3 years ago "Don't trust her...teach yourself".

At least with the latin exam I have no teacher, no previous question papers, nobody telling me to memorize this or that. In the English - Latin I will just write a bit of very easy latin. It's nothing, what's the point of memorizing and cheating as do hosts of grammar schools attaining the highest grades, when you can just learn?

What do you all think of this British examination disgrace?

Eureka
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Post by Eureka »

Languages are notoriously poorly taught. I did ~4 years of primary school Manderin. Now, all I know about the language I could fit on a post-it note. :wink:

Barrius
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Post by Barrius »

Eureka wrote:Languages are notoriously poorly taught. I did ~4 years of primary school Manderin. Now, all I know about the language I could fit on a post-it note. :wink:
Episcopus, I second that - I had almost 2 years of French, and couldn't order dinner or ask directions to save my life (actually USING the language would have been nice, but plans changed). Here in the states, foreign languages are NOT stressed at all.

Maybe once I learn Latin and Greek, I will relearn French.

What it sounds like is the same that happened here - the dumbing down of schools - everybody passes, but few are educated. At least you have a passion for languages now, and will not waste decades of your life.

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klewlis
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Post by klewlis »

Most canadian children take 12 years of french and can't speak it to save their lives.
First say to yourself what you would be; then do what you need to do. ~Epictetus

Kasper
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Post by Kasper »

I fully agree with Episcopus, schools teach kids nothing when it comes to languages, a few words here and there in order to ask direction or order a snack and it is deemed sufficient. Although perhaps the problem lies with people not wanting to learn. I don't know... I am currently studying law off-campus and most universities here won't let you take more than 1 or 2 subjects at a time because they believe it to be too much. It's up to me decide what i can handle, luckily there was one uni that actually agreed that as long as i pass my exams there is no concerns. I think it is because schools are so slow and after 2 years you still no nothing that people nowadays know absolutely nothing. People loose interest because there is no challenge at all. The best way to learn is independently with the help of textkit. hopefully there will be more of such resources available soon.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”

Barrius
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Post by Barrius »

klewlis wrote:Most canadian children take 12 years of french and can't speak it to save their lives.
ROTF!! Are you being sarcastic? :wink: I was up in Toronto a few years back, found myself watching the station in French, and being lost. French wasn't that hard, but decades of non-use took it's toll on my memories of the language. Today if I attempted a conversation I'd probably be arrested on the spot

Barrius
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Post by Barrius »

Kasper wrote:It's up to me decide what i can handle, luckily there was one uni that actually agreed that as long as i pass my exams there is no concerns. I think it is because schools are so slow and after 2 years you still no nothing that people nowadays know absolutely nothing. People loose interest because there is no challenge at all.
I agree. My best grades in college were the quarter when I took an overload (total of 22 hours).

The best way to learn is independently with input from others similarly motivated!

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Post by richc »

I have to agree with all of you on this subject. I'd taken the required number of
credits for japanese, and it really was verging on useless. I really felt bad for
our teacher because she was doing her level best. The problem rests
simultaneosly with the university policy of supporting well attended classes,
cutting funding to those whom few sign up for. And no real need to be bilingual
in the job market (I'm in the United States).
I work for the chemistry department at the University here, and have worked for
engineering as well. The kids there are working day and night to keep up with
their course load. And I have to feel that it's due to the reward of a job upon
graduation.
The study of languages offer no such reward, and were a teacher to try and
implement a regimen such as used to exist for the classics a couple of decades
ago, 95% of the students would drop the course. I feel this applies to the
humanities in general. It's really a shame because a technical education
cannot compensate for a lack of humanity.

BTW I've used Whites "beginning greek book" to teach myself.
I suppose I should sign up for courses in the language. As it would
support the department.
Oh well

richc

Episcopus
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Post by Episcopus »

Strangely it does make me feel slightly better to know that this is the case about the whole world.

Perhaps this is one reason for the decline of classics: the traditional, harsh, succinct approach on which I thrived during the D'Ooge course (What a man!) would have deterred every one except me had this remained in my school.

Of the JWW book, this is an extremely blunt book! It reflects the emphasis on work and discipline of the student, whereas nowadays teaching has been simplified to suit the majority who are so poor at languages.

I have an 1855 French Beginner's course, at the end of it there are pages upon pages of English to French so complex. I can't even explain the difference. This course would have probably been finished in the classroom within about 2 years (it's about 600 pages). I would follow it but the book is a trifle smelly, and I dare not find out the actual composition of the abundant smudges of nigritude therein...

With reference to modern language books, the cheapest most efficient way to go is the Hugo method. Hence do I currently learn Italian with ease. The books cover all that is actually required in terms of grammar and vocabulary, with roughly a 1000 word stock. Whereas the German one through which I have but skimmed bears detailed discussion of the subjunctive (or "Oblique tenses" as they call it) the Italian Hugo, 10 weeks in length, does not cover the subjunctive at all. So I'd recommend a reference grammar also with which one might fill that fissure. Mayhap the Spanish Hugo is likewise. I hope not.

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Post by 1%homeless »

Well, there is a high attrition rate here in Latin 1. When I was in the first Latin class, there wasn't enough chairs for people in the class. In the later part of that semester, about a little more than half of the people disappeared. I'm in my second Latin semester and there is about only 8 people enrolled in that class. The funny thing is that we can take our tests home. She asks the students to try not to look in the book when you're doing the test. :D I think the only test that we can't take home is the final, that's when the teacher will know who cheats on the exams regularly. :)

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Post by Bert »

Barrius wrote: ROTF!!
I am just getting uses to LOL ( However, I don't know if the person writing LOL is doing the laughing or if it is a que for the reader to laugh)
But what does ROTF mean. And how do people around the globe know what it means.
:o

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klewlis
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Post by klewlis »

Barrius wrote:
klewlis wrote:Most canadian children take 12 years of french and can't speak it to save their lives.
ROTF!! Are you being sarcastic? :wink: I was up in Toronto a few years back, found myself watching the station in French, and being lost. French wasn't that hard, but decades of non-use took it's toll on my memories of the language. Today if I attempted a conversation I'd probably be arrested on the spot
unfortunately, i am quite serious.

of course it is much worse here in western canada than it would be in the east...
First say to yourself what you would be; then do what you need to do. ~Epictetus

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Post by Amy »

lol means you yourself are lauging, and rotf = "Rolling on the floor laughing!" Just for reference, lmao = laughing my a** off, and then you get compounds like roflol, and roflmao...

I've never felt that way in Spanish class, since although we progress at a sort of slow pace with a high-school-book, there's a lot of emphasis on verbal fluency and vocab... if I can understand a soap opera, good enough for me! Plus it's not a hard language. I do understand you though; my history class is just abominable. 95% of our grades are 'projects', in which we artistically display a "ceremonial robe" about a "chinese dynasty", based on all of one paragraph from the "book"...

The Zhou dynasty was very important to Chinese history. The concept of feudalism emerged during this time. It's connected to our world because when you give your friends too much power they can dominate your lives...well, that's what happened to the Zhou emperor. War lost its code of conduct.

*dies*

Cichlidae
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Post by Cichlidae »

I can relate Amy (sadly) I am takin Spanish I next year. and I have my 2 years done, but I will try to get you guys to keep me kean on myl learning :shock: My classes normally just rely on homework and class work rather than projects. Amy, that project sounds interesting, I woul have done it :P

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Post by Kerastes »

Well, Episcopus, I read your long story and, while I haven't had the bad experience with German, I certainly agree about teaching grammar. My German was two years in college, each spaced nine years apart, but with competent instructors. The first year was in a small college with a class of three students.

I can't claim any fluency because I haven't used the language much. Another disadvantage is time. I enjoyed being made to speak and write German with others, but doing it as a full time student with plenty of other classes and work on top of that left me disatisfied at my limited progress.

I also commiserate at the pathetic state of modern education. Perhaps language learning is not taken seriously because no effort is made to connect it with other subjects. When I was studying Latin and Greek in secondary school, my instructor would occasionally make us do Greek-to-Latin translation as well as Greek-to-English. In that school, Latin was popular enough that one of my instructors could actually make reference to Latin usage in his English class.

Which leads to a thought for klewlis. In a school in which children study twelve years of French, I wonder what efforts are made to reinforce the language in studying other subjects. You'd think this would make the language stick.

Maybe it's just my analytical mind, but I like the older language textbooks precisely because they are systematic about grammar and abundant in practice material. You can really learn a language with D'Ooge's Latin or Whilte's Greek book.

Kerastes

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Post by mingshey »

O Episcope, in Korea the situation is quite on the other way.
Foreign laguages are too much stressed. But it is the same about how to teach it the right way. We learn a whole lot of grammar, but after 6, or 10 years of learning English, few can say English to save one's own life. So people pour their own money to keep up with languages. You begin to learn German with "der, des, dem, den/ die, der, der, die /das, des, dem, das" and after 3 years with about 3 hours in a week with German, I could only barely talk in German. I can read german books with the help of dictionaries, and I might be able to talk a few words to save my life(Wasser! Toilette! or Kaffee! ;) ) but I won't be able to express my idea in any length. Learning a foreign language is like living a new life again. you have to change the circuit of your brain. It needs grammar as the rewiring manual and also the experience of listening and speaking, and have to change the way of thinking, too. Cheer up! ;)


P.S.


I'm in urge to press myself in Greek, if I am about to mould my girl in Greek. But I can say almost nothing in Greek. Our William's recent post about aesop's fables was a glad encounter. Anybody knows where I can find a couple of Ancient Greek lullabies? :D
Last edited by mingshey on Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Barrius »

klewlis wrote:unfortunately, i am quite serious.

of course it is much worse here in western canada than it would be in the east...
I can understand what you you mean it not being Quebec, but 12 years and still unable to carry on a conversation? The Americanization of the Canadian education system has been accomplished.

We have kids graduating today that can't speak decent English, so I do know what you mean. Sadly.

[edited to fix typo "know" is spelled with one "k"]
Last edited by Barrius on Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by solitario »

When I was a sophomore at high school I wanted to start an Italian program. My father was a teacher, so he told me that in order to get a class started, I would need at least 22 students who were interested and at least one teacher who was capable of teaching the language. Not a problem, as in this school 1/4th of all the students and teachers are Italian. Well I had twice the number of students sign up for the class and had 4 teachers capable of teaching the language (2 of which were native). So I present the list to the administrator of the School District, he said "thank you," placed the list in his briefcase, and I never heard anything about it.
Why they teach German in some American schools is beyond me. When I was in high school, I think there were a dozen first-year students, and went down 50% for the other three years. Not like it serves a purpose in America.

There are also political considerations in language education...
I go to Vieux Quebec all the time, and I definately get the cold shoulder for speaking English. Which is odd, because the town's survival depends on tourism.
The system stopped teaching Latin in most American schools in the early 60s. Why this was done, I still don't know. Perhaps Kennedy was trying to disassociate himself from the Catholic thing?

Now we have this nitwit and his "No Child Left Behind Program" blaming teachers, and putting English forward as a mandatory subject. Which I think has some racist undertones.

Anyway, good luck, and take advantage of whatever you can get out of school.

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Post by klewlis »

Barrius wrote:
klewlis wrote:unfortunately, i am quite serious.

of course it is much worse here in western canada than it would be in the east...
I can understand what you you mean it not being Quebec, but 12 years and still unable to carry on a conversation? The Americanization of the Canadian education system has been accomplished.

We have kids graduating today that can't speak decent English, so I do know what you mean. Sadly.

[edited to fix typo "know" is spelled with one "k"]
I didn't mean just Quebec, but all of the eastern provinces, which are more likely to use french on a regular basis than we are here out west, where everyone only speaks english.

I wouldn't say that canadian schools have been americanized. There are still some significant differences and I would still rather send my kids to a Canadian school than an american one. ;)
First say to yourself what you would be; then do what you need to do. ~Epictetus

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English in Québec

Post by Alexias7 »

I spend my summers in the Adirondack region of New York State. Last summer I did a day trip to Montréal and on the way back to the border realized that I was running out of gas. As there were no informational signs about what was at the next exits, I got off the main road and drove into the nearest village in search of a gas station. There was nothing there either so I drove on, now seriously below empty. I saw a young man, maybe 17 years old, outside the town mowing a lawn. I speak basic French but, as I couldn't remember at that moment how to say 'gas' or 'gas station', I asked him in English where the next station was. He stared at me as if I were addressing him in Ancient Greek, as if I had just stepped out of a UFO. He had not understood a single word I said - and we were outside of a major sophisticated city, in a bi-lingual country, about ten miles from the Vermont border. Not one word of English did this young man understand. Amazing!! I'm sure he had years of English in school, but just because one sits in a classroom doesn't guarantee that one learns anything.

Alexias

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Post by Barrius »

klewlis wrote:I wouldn't say that canadian schools have been americanized. There are still some significant differences and I would still rather send my kids to a Canadian school than an american one. ;)
I have a brother in Vancouver that speaks very highly of the school system (his kids began school in the US). Down here, since the government has been involved with education, our's have simply been dumbed down (to make sure they qualify for federal $$$).

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Post by MDS »

Living in Ontario and attending both public elementary and public high schools I must agree that my knowledge of French is disgraceful. Luckily for me my mom is bilingual so I've been learning as I go along. Up to Gr. 8 (we start French is Gr. 4) I did nothing but practice "french skits" (where the lines in French were given to us, we just acted it out) and conjugate verbs. While I can conjugate verbs in pretty well any tense, I never entered a school-related situation which required more than basic oral French to get by. I took French up to Gr. 10 (we are required to take it up to Gr. 9), then dropped it because I felt it was a waste of a credit since a) I wasn't learning anything in the 75 mins each class I couldn't teach myself in 5 mins and b) the school offered much more interesting courses which would prepare me more for a history/politics degree while in university. I'll be completing my first year in university in about two weeks when exams finish up and I can honestly say dropping French in Gr. 10 was a really smart move for me personally. I have been all throughout the Eastern Townships (in Quebec) and for the children there its the opposite problem. As Alexias mentioned, their knowledge of English is very rudimentary. As for Montreal, Quebec City or any other major urban centre within Quebec, I've never had a problem communicating whether it be in English or in French. In fact, most people in the service industry I've encountered prefer to practice their English with me. All in all, despite Canada being a bilingual country on paper it is by no stretch of the imagination even close to being so.

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Re: What do you Guys think, like

Post by Emma_85 »

Episcopus wrote:What do you all think of this British examination disgrace?
I totally agree that foreign language classes are terrible in the UK, I've had to sit through a month of GCSE German classes (top set) and I can only second your opinion.
But I do think that exams at the end of a year are a good idea, the problem is that if the government doesn't think foreign languages are important, they won't put pressure on the boards to make the exams any harder, nor on the teachers to actually teach those kids a language.

Here everyone is really good (compared to what foreign language skills in the UK are like, they suck compared to other EU countries) at French and English, but in French only because the teacher Herr Dahnz is a pupil's nightmare, only a few like him. He does teach French very well- to the few he likes, he just makes fun of the rest of the class and is so mean to some people (just imagine Professor Snape - lol the boy he made fun of most used to have the nickname Harry Potter, because he looked just like him :P ).
So no exams isn't the right answer either, as it lets a teacher do whatever the wants to do and hand out the grades depending on whether he likes the student or not (and everyone he didn't like of course dropped French and tried to forget French as soon as possible, so that they weren't reminded of the worst school lessons they'd ever had.) The rest of them are good at the language, but there aren't that many left now, and some who did have talent, were scared away by him.

It's a shame that there's no perfect school system... ah, the way to learn a foreign language best is to live in that country though, forget schools ;-).

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Post by Clemens »

I think the English classes are quite good here in Austria. Well, it depends on the teacher but in general students learn enough to understand most English texts and they can also express their thoughts sufficiently...(at least I hope you can understand what I mean ;-))

Clemens :)

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