greetings latineer

Textkit is a learning community- introduce yourself here. Use the Open Board to introduce yourself, chat about off-topic issues and get to know each other.
Post Reply
alauda
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:47 am
Location: The Pacific Coast, somewhere

greetings latineer

Post by alauda »

Salvete!

My cognomen here is Alauda – Latin for “Lark”, but my real name is Richard Crockett. I am an artist who lives, alas, in Los Angeles.

One day, I needed a break from painting and drawing, so I decided to do some writing, and the writing grew into a novel. It takes place in Roman times during the reign of Augustus.

In the writing, in an effort to give my characters a Roman voice, I found myself handicapped by my lack of Latin, so I embarked upon that study only recently, yet truly, I am already much impassioned by the beauty and the power of the language. I was delighted to discover Textkit and downloaded HUGE amounts of quality material. All thanks be given.

Just today, I finally got to a point where I could actually understand in Latin, as Latin, without translation, a poem by Catullus. I call this poem “The Great Eight”, the one that begins, “Miser Catulle…”

It was a spine tingling experience.

I have not as yet much delved into the other message boards, but I thought I would introduce myself and give some indication of my interests and directions. I tend not to check into the internet but every few days and then for intense periods, but I will check the posts here from time to time and see where the artistic/philosophic/poetic threads lay.

Vale,

Alauda

Raya
Textkit Fan
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:27 am

Post by Raya »

Salve!

A fellow artist - wonderful!
and I am always glad to come across those who care for learning to truly read and think in the ancient languages, experiencing them for what they are, without the restraints of translation.

For myself, I study Greek and not Latin. But I recall a similar experience, the first time I managed to understand something in Greek without another language as a go-between: it was Sappho

φαίνεταί μοι κῆνος ίσος θέοισιν
He seems to me, that man, equal to the gods...

On a more perfunctory note: don't hesitate to contact me (or the other mods) if you have any trouble with the forums.

I hope we shall see more of you!
Vale bene ;)

Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Post by Episcopus »

Welcome to this place!

Whence did you learn Latin then?

My inspiration was a lack of any productive activity and a Back to the Future style dream in Roman times. They were speaking Latin but I could not understand obviously. Now in my dreams I comprehend well and occasionally have Latin subtitles for some reason.

User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California
Contact:

Post by benissimus »

Welcome Alauda,

You seem like a very interesting person and I can't wait to hear what you have to say. That poem was the first one I read too, and I agree it is a very suspenseful and emotional piece.
Raya wrote: φαίνεταί μοι κῆνος ίσος θέοισιν
He seems to me, that man, equal to the gods...
Wow, Catullus wrote my favorite poem in Sapphic stanza and it begins...
Ille mi par esse deo videtur
That man seems to me to be equal to a god...
I'm thinking this is no coincidence :idea:
Last edited by benissimus on Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:18 am, edited 4 times in total.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

Ulpianus
Textkit Member
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: London, UK

Post by Ulpianus »

It is no coincidence; as I understand it (but I don't have the Greek) there is a very close relationship until the 4th strophe. What a wonderful poem.

The third strophe in Latin is so beautiful it deserves quotation for anyone who doesn't know it. It really needs to be read out loud; the subtlety of the music is quite breathtaking.
Lingua sed torpet, tenuis sub artus
flamma demanat, sonitus suopte
tintinant aures, gemina teguntur
lumina nocte
[But my tongue seizes up, a subtle flame comes trickling through my limbs, my ears ring with a buzzing all their own, my eyes are touched by double night.]

Quite impossible to translate without it becoming ghastly prosaic. And there is a touch of the erotic in "tenuis sub artus flamma demanat" which could not be captured without crudeness which (here at least) seems utterly out of place.

alauda
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:47 am
Location: The Pacific Coast, somewhere

Post by alauda »

Well, I just hit the "post reply" button to see what would happen, and it seems that individual replies to individual posts is not the way this system is set up, yes?

But that is fine. Let me name by name those who replied and try if I can to answer. Ulpianus, benissimus, Episcopus, Raya thanks to you all...

Now let us see how to do those flashy little quote boxes I see... Something to do with that little quote button just above?

Like this?

Ulpianus wrote:
The third strophe in Latin is so beautiful it deserves quotation for anyone who doesn't know it. It really needs to be read out loud; the subtlety of the music is quite breathtaking.

Quote:
Lingua sed torpet, tenuis sub artus
flamma demanat, sonitus suopte
tintinant aures, gemina teguntur
lumina nocte
What is that from? Did i miss something? It is fine, I agree.

benissimus wrote:
That poem was the first one I read too, and I agree it is a very suspenseful and emotional piece.
Agreed again. I've been practicing saying it. When I get to the part where it says:
quem basiabis? cui labella mordebis?
whom will you kiss? whose lips will you bite?

I pronuciate the first question with a high pitch at the question mark then a deep, low (almost snarl with bared teeth) at the last. I strongly feel that Catullus intended a double meaning there, but all the translations I've seen have it all sweet and sappy at that point. No. I think not.

Episcopus wrote:
Whence did you learn Latin then?
I taught myself. I re-studied grammar so I could understand the dictionary then simply "Iron Manned" my way through texts. I like poems because for one I can use the meter to make sure I get the long vowels in the right places, and for another, the whole aesthetic of beautiful writing is motivating and inspiring.


Raya wrote:
A fellow artist - wonderful!
Mirror that!

I have not yet begun Greek. That was my first impulse, actually, but I am saving Greek for a desert. it is a case of I know I will become so in love that I dare not begin for the world will be forsaken, and I have some battles Romanesque to fight yet.

Thanks to all for the kind words. I always enjoy a literate group.

Now I have a question. Which forum is specifically oriented to... say, one comes up with a new twist or interpretation of old material (in my case Latin poems (at least this week)) and wants to share and discuss those kind of spins. Where does one go?

Vale,

Alauda

Ulpianus
Textkit Member
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: London, UK

Post by Ulpianus »

Alauda wrote:What is that from? Did i miss something? It is fine, I agree.
Catullus 51, which is (for the most part) a translation (to which Benissimus referred) of the Sappho to which Raya referred. It's certainly worth a look: a really great poem and not hard.

User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California
Contact:

Post by benissimus »

alauda wrote:Well, I just hit the "post reply" button to see what would happen, and it seems that individual replies to individual posts is not the way this system is set up, yes?
Yes, that's the way this forum works. I was used to a spiderweb format before I came here but you get used to it after awhile. There are some advantages, but also disadvantages (like wandering topics).
But that is fine. Let me name by name those who replied and try if I can to answer. Ulpianus, benissimus, Episcopus, Raya thanks to you all...

Now let us see how to do those flashy little quote boxes I see... Something to do with that little quote button just above?

Like this?
Looks like you figured it out. You can also quote by name by using the code [ quote="Ulpianus"]<message>[/quote]. Just ask a moderator if you have any questions or need help with the forum system, but you can get by pretty well without knowing all the coding and stuff.
Ulpianus wrote:
The third strophe in Latin is so beautiful it deserves quotation for anyone who doesn't know it. It really needs to be read out loud; the subtlety of the music is quite breathtaking.

Quote:
Lingua sed torpet, tenuis sub artus
flamma demanat, sonitus suopte
tintinant aures, gemina teguntur
lumina nocte
What is that from? Did i miss something? It is fine, I agree.
This is from the Catullus poem which I was referring to, Catullus LI to be exact.
Agreed again. I've been practicing saying it. When I get to the part where it says:
quem basiabis? cui labella mordebis?
whom will you kiss? whose lips will you bite?

I pronuciate the first question with a high pitch at the question mark then a deep, low (almost snarl with bared teeth) at the last. I strongly feel that Catullus intended a double meaning there, but all the translations I've seen have it all sweet and sappy at that point. No. I think not.
That section of the poem is really just contemptful, I enjoy it. I really don't like translating poetry because it tends to turn it into prose or else something that hardly resembles the feeling of the original piece, and that is the problem with the "sappy" versions, or so I think. Tones of course are crucial to his poetry, though I really am ignorant of meter in my current level of learning...
Now I have a question. Which forum is specifically oriented to... say, one comes up with a new twist or interpretation of old material (in my case Latin poems (at least this week)) and wants to share and discuss those kind of spins. Where does one go?
There's a lot of overlap here. If the poem is Latin, you are welcome to post it in the main Latin forum. If it's something that seems philosophical, the Academy is the place to go. Otherwise, if the discussion does not alienate people who don't know Latin, then the Open Board is fine.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

Raya
Textkit Fan
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:27 am

Post by Raya »

alauda wrote:Which forum is specifically oriented to... say, one comes up with a new twist or interpretation of old material (in my case Latin poems (at least this week)) and wants to share and discuss those kind of spins. Where does one go?
Are you for real? :D

Alas, there is no forum dedicated specifically to such stuff - for the moment, the site seems more inclined towards language-learning than literary appreciation.
But that's not to say that the latter is unwelcome!

Where to post depends on your intentions, really.
If you want to just share something with everyone: the Open Board.
If you want to discuss/debate it with much reference to its linguistic merit: the general Learning Latin board.
If you wish to discuss/debate a particular theme or other issue arising from the content of the poem (especially with reference to its appeal beyond the poem): the Academy.
If you wish to do any of the above, but holding the discussion in Latin: the Agora.

But generally: when in doubt, post at the Open Board. If it belongs in a different forum we'll move it accordingly.

Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Post by Episcopus »

I am reading some Catullus at the moment and compared to Virgil he's a bit of a loser. Well that's just my instinct. Virgil's verse is brimming with class. All that Catullus on the subject of kisses etc sounds desperate and inelegant.

Evito
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:56 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Post by Evito »

sup homie glad 2 b down wit ya dawg I finna max wit u sum time soon peace I be swazie

cadoro
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:34 am
Location: London

Post by cadoro »

Episcopus wrote:I am reading some Catullus at the moment and compared to Virgil he's a bit of a loser. Well that's just my instinct. Virgil's verse is brimming with class. All that Catullus on the subject of kisses etc sounds desperate and inelegant.
You can't help imagining the characters of the various poets from the subject matter and style of their verse and how they would have all reacted together.
One forms the impression of a shy Vergil who sticks to his tablets all the time, Horace always with a bottle of his Falernian wine, both of them probably awkward with the girls, as opposed to Propertius and Catullus forever in love and hopelessly passionate.
Oh to be a fly on the wall at one of their gatherings.

mariek
Global Moderator
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Post by mariek »

Hi Alauda,

Welcome to Textkit! I see you got the quotes working, you're a quick study aren't you! :wink: Click on this link to learn more about BBCode.

alauda
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:47 am
Location: The Pacific Coast, somewhere

Post by alauda »

Salvete!

Thanks to those who gave me the lay of the land re where to post what. It is seemly for the wanderer to inquire into the customs of new places before stumbling about.

Thanks Ulpianus and benissimus for the ref on Catullus LI. It turns out I had that on my to-do list, but I have not yet gone there, and regarding that, to Episcopus earlier question about how I learned Latin, I should clarify: I have not yet learned Latin; rather, I am learning it. The reason that relates to Catullus LI has to do with method, and that is to strike deep rather than broad.

In schools, places where I spent, it seems, centuries, I was always frustrated at just getting a glimpse of something interesting before we moved on. So being that I teach myself now, I get very intent on one thing and stay with it until I really get it.

Which means I will make unfortunate mistakes like forget that valete (farewell) is the plural of vale. (Like I noticed I did earlier.) It also means that many areas of common knowledge to students following traditional curricula are completely alien to me.

So getting turned on to good stuff to study and having sophomoric errors discovered is a Good Thing.

Now, on to a few more comments and acknowledgements in some kind of reversed syncopated order.

Mariek, thanks for the greeting and the BBCode link. See all the italics, underlinings, and bold faced fonts? Cool!

Cadero and Episcopus, I have little concept of Catullus the man. I always had the impression that Michelo Angelo would be an impossible sort to get along with, but Great Gods could he carve stone! And so it is with Catullus. The guy had a dark, wicked side, no doubt; I gather boys did just as well for him as women, yet in the Eighth he captured feelings exactly as I have felt (more than once). Emotions swirling and spinning -- from black gloom to loathsome self pity to wild tears to mad rage to quiet, careful contemplation -- and all of it wrapped in stunning contrast to expressions of beauty and joy. He did all that in about a hundred words. Truly, a tour de force.
benissimus wrote: I really don't like translating poetry because it tends to turn it into prose or else something that hardly resembles the feeling of the original piece, and that is the problem with the "sappy" versions, or so I think.
Yes. That is the way of it. I like the way the originals paint images in the mind in a certain order. Translations lose the pacing if they keep the sequence, and the sequence if they keep the pacing, and some words represent concepts in another language that we just do not have without a paragraph of explanation.

Which segues nicely into…
Raya wrote: …the site seems more inclined towards language-learning than literary appreciation.
“Alas,” indeed, for are not (or should not) the two be one? I mean, what for all this bloody work if not for appreciation?

For real,

alauda

alauda
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:47 am
Location: The Pacific Coast, somewhere

Post by alauda »

postscriptum
Evito wrote:sup homie glad 2 b down wit ya dawg I finna max wit u sum time soon peace I be swazie
All right, I could figure everything but "finna max."

?

Ulpianus
Textkit Member
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: London, UK

Post by Ulpianus »

Alauda, I think your decision to plunge into reading is perfectly sensible. (Which is not to say that learning all the grammar first is necessarily wrong: but everyone learns differently.)

PS
cadoro wrote:both of them probably awkward with the girls
Virgil not really into girls, if I recall correctly -- sufficiently for the point to be remarked upon at the time.

Post Reply