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Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Latin after CDLXXVI

Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:41 am

Andrzej Kochanowski's epitaph in the small village church in Gródek:
https://fotopolska.eu/556493,foto.html

The last two lines are:

Condidit hanc aedem, sed in illa conditor ipse,
Conditur, ast animam conditor orbis habet
.

How to translate this to preserve play on words: condidit, conditor and conditur. In my translation below, I was unable to render this.

Please, draw your attention also to the commentary I've made.

Context:

Latin origin: Sanguine et ingenio generoso cultor avite
Commentary: avitae? - probalby letter lost from the end of the word because of lack of space; Sanguine, ingenio, generoso - I understand as ablativi originis
Proposed translation: By blood and talent and by noble birth grower of ancestors'

Latin origin: Virtutis, pura religione pius
Commentary: pura religione - could be understood as ablativus respectus or ablativus qualitatis - any other propositions?
Proposed translation: Virtues, pious of/by shear religiosity

Latin origin: Editus Andreas, claro Cochanovius ortu,
Commentary: claro ortu - ablativus originis
Proposed translation: Outstanding Andrzej, by origin, from the famous Kochanowski [family]

Latin origin: Qui vir spectatae nobilitatis erat
Proposed translation: Who was man of noted renown

Latin origin: Dumque patriae charisque inservit amicis
Commentary: patriae - dativus, charis or caris - dativus pluralis
Proposed translation: And while to fatherland and to dear friends is in service

Latin origin: Virtutis partes officiosus obit.
Commentary: maybe obiit?
Proposed translation: dutifully obliging the features of virility - he dies/died

Latin origin: Dignaque gente sua facit, et dignissima Christo,
Commentary: i.e.: res digna cum gente sua facit...
Proposed translation: And [with] his family makes good [things] and even better to Christ

Latin origin: Dexteritate, fide, strenuitate gravis.
Commentary: series of ablatives in adverbial usages
Proposed translation: By dexterity, fidelity, strenuosity - grave

Latin origin: Evocat in medio extinctum mors invida cursu,
Commentary: i.e.: mors invidia evocat extinctum in medio cursu; extinctum - substantivised adjective
Proposed translation: Envious death calls out extinguished [one] in the middle of his career

Latin origin: Mortuus hac tegitur, quam sibi legit humo.
Commentary: i.e.: Mortuus hac [abl.] via [abl.] tegitur; legit - praesens or maybe lēgit - praeteritum perfectum
Proposed translation: Dead in this way is entombed, how he has chosen [to be buried], I inhume him.

Latin origin: Condidit hanc aedem, sed in illa conditor ipse
Proposed translation: He has built this temple but in it the builder himself

Latin origin: Conditur, ast animam conditor orbis habet.
Proposed translation: Lies buried, but the founder of the world has his soul.

If possible please suggest other lecture of the text than mine.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby bedwere » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:11 pm

For sure one cannot grow his ancestors. More likely avite is the adverbial form of avitus, a, um

Also, what about cultur avite virtutis, one who grows virtue from ancient times?

claro and ortu go together: of noble birth.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:51 pm

For sure one cannot grow his ancestors, but can one grow his ancestors's virtues in the sense of multiplying them or magnifying them?
Last edited by Micek on Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:17 pm

bedwere wrote:For sure one cannot grow his ancestors. More likely avite is the adverbial form of avitus, a, um

Also, what about cultur avite virtutis, one who grows virtue from ancient times?

claro and ortu go together: of noble birth.


grower of ancestors' Virtues - in my translation Andreas grew his ancestors' Virtues and not ancestors themselves. As for the word grower, I chose the word because cultor is close the the word culture and originality that word referred to agriculture then metaphorically it was used, If I recollect well, by Cicero as cultura animi or cultura mentis. The whole concept of culture of the soul or mind was revived by Italian humanists and was very much present at the time when the inscription originated.

As for avite as an adverb, please specify which verb, phrase, clause or sentence it modifies and then provide appropriate translation.

claro and ortu certainly go together, they are both ablatives and refer to Kochanowsky family; which by the way I translated as: by origin, from the famous... Please provide a better translation. I didn't mark that I want a translation to be as close as possible to the original Latin text.

With regards,
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Last edited by Micek on Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby mwh » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:58 pm

These are elegiac couplets. That should solve some of your difficulties.
dumque patriae is wrong.
I’m afraid most of your line-by-line translations are wrong, some of them excruciatingly so.
bedwere already told you what claro ortu means.
Dignaque gente sua facit, et dignissima Christo does not mean anything like “And [with] his family makes good [things] and even better to Christ”
and Virtutis partes officiosus obit does not mean anything like “dutifully obliging the features of virility - he dies/died”
and Mortuus hac tegitur, quam sibi legit humo does not mean anything like “Dead in this way is entombed, how he has chosen [to be buried], I inhume him”
Helps with these: digna neut.pl., “worthy of his family”; dignissima superlative.
obit transitive.
humo abl. with hac; quam “which.”

Perhaps others will help you further with this.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:41 pm

mwh wrote:These are elegiac couplets. That should solve some of your difficulties.


So the meter of that couplet should be as this:

¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ x

¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯

Condidit|hanc ae|dem, sed in |il. |conditor |ipse,
Conditur,| ast anim|am c|onditor| orbis ha|bet.

So it seems that it is one, save the last syllable.

mwh wrote:dumque patriae is wrong.
I’m afraid most of your line-by-line translations are wrong, some of them excruciatingly so.


mwh wrote:bedwere already told you what claro ortu means.


bedwere: claro and ortu go together: of noble birth.

I am looking for a translation that is as close to the original as possible. claro and ortu are ablatives of origin, as I understand, and they are, etymologically speaking, translated into English with the prepositions from or by, so I have translated them one by one claro as from the famous and ortu as by origin. So as you can see, they could be translated in the more idiomatic English as of noble birth. But I prefer the English words which come directly from Latin or which evoke the same image like the Latin.


mwh wrote:Dignaque gente sua facit, et dignissima Christo does not mean anything like “And [with] his family makes good [things] and even better to Christ”


I understood that digna is a substantivised adjective and means really res digna, as I wrote in the commentary res digna []. And gente I understood as ablativus sociativus without the preposition cum. So altogether I rendered the line as “And [with] his family makes good [things] and even better to Christ”. Please make a parsing and suggest better translation.

mwh wrote:and Virtutis partes officiosus obit does not mean anything like “dutifully obliging the features of virility - he dies/died”


It is difficult for me to grasp the meaning of Virtutis partes. Can you suggest what it can mean?
Officiosus according to wiktionary can mean dutiful, obliging or officious - which one would you choose? And what about the word obit? Can it really be obiit, and past not present. What do you think?

mwh wrote:and Mortuus hac tegitur, quam sibi legit humo does not mean anything like “Dead in this way is entombed, how he has chosen [to be buried], I inhume him”


You are probably right.

mwh wrote:Helps with these: digna neut.pl., “worthy of his family”;


but digna is an adjective and never noun according to my Latin dictionary.
So I gather that it is substantivized adjective really meaning res digna. So that is the source of my confusion here.

mwh wrote:dignissima superlative.


Yes, so I see it.

mwh wrote:obit transitive.


So he goes towards Virtutis partes?

mwh wrote:humo abl. with hac; quam “which.”


So the parsing should by like this:

Mortuus hac [abl.] tegitur, quam sibi legit humo[abl.].

Can you suggest any translation?
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:17 pm

RERUM NOVARUM

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
ON CAPITAL AND LABOR

cuius virtutis partes ac lineamenta divina Paulus Apostolus iis verbis expressit: Caritas patiens est, benigna est: non quaerit quae sua sunt: omnia suffert: omnia sustinet

whose Godlike features are outlined by the Apostle St. Paul in these words: "Charity is patient, is kind, . . . seeketh not her own, . . . suffereth all things, . . . endureth all things."

virtutis partes = Godlike features ???

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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:01 pm

If In partibus infidelium means in heathen countries, then virtutis partes can be understood as countries of virtue. Am I right?
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:57 am

I took your suggestions and made some amendments in my translations:

Latin origin: Editus Andreas, claro Cochanovius ortu,
Proposed translation: Outstanding Andrzej, of Kochanowski noble birth

Latin origin: Virtutis partes officiosus obit.
Proposed translation: And diligent worker goes towards kingdom(s) of virtue

Please provide further suggestions.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:04 am

mwh wrote:These are elegiac couplets.


All verses or only the last ones?

mwh wrote:dumque patriae is wrong.


How would you translate them?
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:59 am

Dumque patriae charisque inservit amicis
Virtutis partes officiosus obit

Proposed translation:

And while to [his] fatherland and dear friends he is in service
Obedient he goes towards virtutis partes

virtutis partes seems to me loaded with some meaning from Thomas Aquinas philosophy.
Would you care to elucidate it to me?

Virtutis partes sunt quatuor: justitia, prudentia, fortitudo, et temperantia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_virtues
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtutes_cardinales

Maybe Virtutis partes are personified like here:

Image
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:51 am

mwh wrote:Dignaque gente sua facit, et dignissima Christo


Maybe it should be parsed like this:
Et gente[abl.] digna[abl.] sua[abl.] et Christo[abl.] dignissima[abl.] facit.

ablativi instrumenti?

In the translation above I have parsed it like this:

Dignaque [res] [cum] gente sua facit, et dignissima [res] [cum] Christo [facit]

It makes more sense for me.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby mwh » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:34 pm

The whole epitaph is in elegiac couplets, as I indicated. Dignaque gente sua facit, et dignissima Christo is a hexameter. Digna is neuter plural, as I already told you. So is dignissima. The meter tells you that the –a is short. They are accusative, the internal objects of facit. (No noun is needed; res, feminine, is not to be supplied.) Dignus + abl. means “worthy of.”

That’s enough from me. Maybe someone else will help you out with the rest. It’s really quite straightforward. The first eight verses are a single sentence, eulogizing the man’s life. Then death came knocking.

P.S. I guess dumque <suae> patriae in line 5.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:18 pm

mwh wrote:The whole epitaph is in elegiac couplets, as I indicated. Dignaque gente sua facit, et dignissima Christo is a hexameter. Digna is neuter plural, as I already told you. So is dignissima. The meter tells you that the –a is short. They are accusative, the internal objects of facit. (No noun is needed; res, feminine, is not to be supplied.) Dignus + abl. means “worthy of.”


¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ x
Dignaque| gente su|ā facit|, et dig|nissima |Chrīs.

And makes worthy of his family and most worthy of Christ

Why did the author put it in neuter plural? gente is singularis femininum and Christo is singularis masculinum. With what it is in grammatical agreement with?

mwh wrote:P.S. I guess dumque <suae> patriae in line 5.


Let's then check the meter here.

¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ ˘ ˘ | ¯ x
Dumque su|ae patri|ae chā|rīs. qu(e) īn|ser.vit a|mīc.īs

It seems that you are right.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:47 pm

mwh wrote:The first eight verses are a single sentence, eulogizing the man’s life.

Sanguine et ingenio generoso cultor avitae
Virtutis, pura religione pius
Editus Andreas, claro Cochanovius ortu,
Qui vir spectatae nobilitatis erat
Dumque suae patriae charisque inservit amicis
Virtutis partes officiosus obit.
Dignaque gente sua facit, et dignissima Christo,
Dexteritate, fide, strenuitate gravis.

mwh wrote:Then death came knocking.

Evocat in medio extinctum mors invida cursu,
Mortuus hac tegitur, quam sibi legit humo.
Condidit hanc aedem, sed in illa conditor ipse
Conditur, ast animam conditor orbis habet.

What is inserted to the original text I marked by the red color.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:00 pm

Taking together all you suggestions my translation would be like this:

1. line: By blood and talent and by noble birth grower of ancestors'
2. line: Virtues, pious, of pure religiosity
3. line: Outstanding Andrzej, of Kochanowski noble birth
4. line: Who was man of noted renown
5. line: And while to his fatherland and to dear friends is in service
6. line: Obedient he goes towards cardinal virtues
7. line: And makes worthy of his family and most worthy of Christ
8. line: By dexterity, fidelity, strenuosity - grave
9. line: Envious death calls out extinguished [one] in the middle of his career
10. line: dead covert so in the soil, which he has chosen for himself
11. line: He has built this temple but in it the builder himself
12. line: Lies buried, but the founder of the world has his soul.

Comments and objections:
1. line:
Firstly, bedwere wrote
bedwere wrote:For sure one cannot grow his ancestors.

I rejected the suggestion, because: grower of ancestors' Virtues - in my translation Andreas grew his ancestors' Virtues and not ancestors themselves.
Secondly,
bedwere wrote:More likely avite is the adverbial form of avitus, a, um

I rejected this suggestion and retained the insertion of the letter a: avitae, because if avite were an adverb, then which verb, phrase, clause or sentence it modifies?
2. line:
No suggestions.
3. line:
I accepted the suggestion
bedwere wrote:claro and ortu go together: of noble birth.

4. line:
No suggestions.
5. line:
mwh wrote:
mwh wrote:P.S. I guess dumque <suae> patriae in line 5.

I accepted the suggestion and changed the original line by inserting suae:
Dumque suae patriae charisque inservit amicis - the word is evidently lacking; hexametric verse is expected here.
6. line:
mwh wrote:
mwh wrote: and Virtutis partes officiosus obit does not mean anything like “dutifully obliging the features of virility - he dies

I accepted the suggestion and changed dutifully to obedient and Virtutis partes translated as personified cardinal virtues because: Virtutis partes sunt quatuor: justitia, prudentia, fortitudo, et temperantia and they look like this
Image
And of course
mwh wrote:obit is transitive.

7. line:
mwh wrote:
mwh wrote:The whole epitaph is in elegiac couplets, as I indicated. Dignaque gente sua facit, et dignissima Christo is a hexameter. Digna is neuter plural, as I already told you. So is dignissima. The meter tells you that the –a is short. They are accusative, the internal objects of facit. (No noun is needed; res, feminine, is not to be supplied.) Dignus + abl. means “worthy of.”

I accepted the suggestion in my translation because the meter tells you that the –a is short as I showed above. The only thing I do not know is why did author put digna in neuter plural.
8. line:
No suggestions.
9. line:
No suggestions.
10. line:
mwh wrote:and Mortuus hac tegitur, quam sibi legit humo does not mean anything like “Dead in this way is entombed, how he has chosen [to be buried], I inhume him”.

I accepted the suggestion for a change.
mwh wrote:humo abl. with hac; quam “which.”

11. line:
No suggestions.
12. line:
No suggestions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it better now?

Please give further suggestions to improve my translation.
Thank you in advance for you help.

Micek
Last edited by Micek on Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:07 pm

Thank you for you help!

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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:09 pm

Irregularities in the elegiac couplet metrum I have marked by bold red character
How do you explain it?

San.gui.n(e) et| in.ge.ni.|ō ge.ne.|.| cul.tor a|.tae
Vir..|tis, .||| re.li.gi.|ō.ne pi.|us
Ē.di.tus| An.dre.as|, clā.| Co.cha.|no.vi.us| or.
Quī vir| spec..|tae|| .bi.li.|.tis er.|at
Dum.que su.|ae pa.tri.|ae chā.|rīs.qu(e) īn.|ser.vit a.|.cīs
Vir..|tis par.|tēs|| of.fi.|ci.ō.|sus ob.it.
Dig.na.que| gen.te su.|ā fa.cit,| et dig.|nis.si.ma |Chrīs.,
Dex.te.ri.|.te, fi.|,|| strē.nu.i.|.te gra.|vis.
Ē.vo.cat| in me.di(ō) |ex.tīn.|ctum mors| in.vi.da |cur.,
Mor.tu.us| hāc te.gi.|tur,|| quam si.bi| .git hum.|ō.
Con.di.dit| hanc ae.|dem, sed in| il.| con.di.tor| ip.se
Con.di.tur,| ast a.ni.|mam|| con.di.tor |or.bis ha.|bet.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby mwh » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:17 am

Your supposed "irregularities" are imaginary.
The only irregularity in the epitaph is dumque patriae, which must be wrong, as I noted in my first post. I proposed an emendation to fix it, but that’s only a guess, a coniectura. The fact that it's metrical doesn’t mean that it’s right.
The rest of the lines all scan normally as elegiacs. In line 2, for instance, the first syllable of religione is long, and -us at the end of the line is long (or “heavy”) by definition, since it’s verse end. And you must be applying some false principle if you find fault with officiosus obit.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:33 pm

mwh wrote:And you must be applying some false principle if you find fault with officiosus obit.


You are obviously right. It should scan like this:

Vir.tū.|tis par.|tēs|| of.fi.ci.|ō.sus ob.|it.

mwh wrote:In line 2, for instance, the first syllable of religione is long


You are right. The lengthening of a vowel or syllable beyond its typical length is called the diastole. To diastole is also attributed the lengthening of the first syllable in certain compounds of re- like in the word of religione.

https://books.google.pl/books?id=CDxD2a1bDQQC&pg=PA128&dq=%22To+diastole+is+also+attributed+the+lengthening+of+the+first+syllable+in+certain+compounds+of+Re.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ1p6L4PPdAhUBiSwKHc3SB5gQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=%22To%20diastole%20is%20also%20attributed%20the%20lengthening%20of%20the%20first%20syllable%20in%20certain%20compounds%20of%20Re.%22&f=false

As for
mwh wrote: -us at the end of the line is long (or “heavy”) by definition, since it’s verse end.
I was unaware of. But if you are right then also vis, se and bet would be regular:

Dex.te.ri.|.te, fi.|,|| strē.nu.i.|.te gra.|vis.
Con.di.dit| hanc ae.|dem, sed in| il.| con.di.tor| ip.se
Con.di.tur,| ast a.ni.|mam|| con.di.tor |or.bis ha.|bet.
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Re: Please help me to understand the following Latin epitaph

Postby Micek » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:44 am

mwh wrote:I’m afraid most of your line-by-line translations are wrong...


Latin original text:

Sanguine et ingenio generoso cultor avitae
Virtutis, pura religione pius
Editus Andreas, claro Cochanovius ortu,
Qui vir spectatae nobilitatis erat
Dumque suae patriae charisque inservit amicis
Virtutis partes officiosus obit.
Dignaque gente sua facit, et dignissima Christo,
Dexteritate, fide, strenuitate gravis.
Evocat in medio extinctum mors invida cursu,
Mortuus hac tegitur, quam sibi legit humo.
Condidit hanc aedem, sed in illa conditor ipse
Conditur, ast animam conditor orbis habet.


English translation:

By blood and talent and by noble birth caretaker of ancestral garden of
Virtues, pious of pure religiosity
Outstanding Andrzej, of Kochanowski noble birth
He was a man of spectacular renown.
And as to his fatherland and to his dear friends he is in service,
Obediently, he goes towards cardinal virtues,
And makes himself worthy of his family and most worthy of Christ
And is marked by weighty dexterity, fidelity, strenuosity

Envious death calls him out - extinguished - in the middle of his career,
Dead now is thus hidden in this soil - that, which he has chosen for himself.
He has laid down foundations of this temple, but in it, the founder himself
is laid down, yet the founder of this world has taken his soul.

Is it better now? Please give your opinion and suggestions for improvement.

Micek wrote:I prefer the English words which come directly from Latin or which evoke the same image like the Latin ones.
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