MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
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MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
Just reviewing:
O, MEA AMPULLA (nom.)(fem)
O, MEUS GLADIUS (nom.)(masc)
O, MEA AMPULLA (voc.)(fem)
O, MEUS GLADIUS (voc.)(masc)
O, MI GLADIUS (voc.)(masc)
Also,
O DOMINE MEUS (meus is afterwards because it is fem)
O MI DEUS (mi is before because it is masc)
thanks
O, MEA AMPULLA (nom.)(fem)
O, MEUS GLADIUS (nom.)(masc)
O, MEA AMPULLA (voc.)(fem)
O, MEUS GLADIUS (voc.)(masc)
O, MI GLADIUS (voc.)(masc)
Also,
O DOMINE MEUS (meus is afterwards because it is fem)
O MI DEUS (mi is before because it is masc)
thanks
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
Both dominus and deus are masculine nounsblutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:O DOMINE MEUS (meus is afterwards because it is fem)
O MI DEUS (mi is before because it is masc)
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
then what is the rule for correct placement of MEUS and MI
with relation to the noun?
also - is the stuff on 'Oh, mea ampulla' etc correct?
thanks.
with relation to the noun?
also - is the stuff on 'Oh, mea ampulla' etc correct?
thanks.
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
If you say O, then you generally are using the vocative, not the nominative. But those are the nominative forms, yes.blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:
O, MEA AMPULLA (nom.)(fem)
O, MEUS GLADIUS (nom.)(masc)
The vocative singular of gladius would be gladi, though it is not often seen for words like 'sword'.O, MEA AMPULLA (voc.)(fem)
O, MEUS GLADIUS (voc.)(masc)
O, MI GLADIUS (voc.)(masc)
The gender of a noun has no effect on where its modifiers are placed. And both those nouns are masculine. Deus is a correct vocative form.O DOMINE MEUS (meus is afterwards because it is fem)
O MI DEUS (mi is before because it is masc)
The word meus usually has the singular masculine vocative form mi, but occasionally it appears as meus, for no better reason than euphony. In a phrase like O domine meus I might indeed expect to see the form meus instead of mi, but it could equally well be either, with no change in meaning or grammar. So both your phrases are perfectly fine, and their respective word-orders could easily be reversed with no change in meaning.
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
Rules:
1) MEUS can be used in either the masculine vocative or masculine nominative
2) MI in the masucline can only be used in the vocative
MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)
O, MEUS GLADI (voc.)(masc)
(MEUS is used in nom or voc as rule 1 states)
further according to rule 2 you can use either MI or MEUS in the vocative masc
example:
O, MEUS GLADI (voc)(masc)
O, MI GLADI (voc)(masc)
Also, MEA can be used in the voc feminine or the nom feminine
O, MEA AMPULLA (voc/fem)
MEA AMPULLA (nom/fem)
asking for clarifiction: it does not matter whether you put MEUS or MI
before or after the noun in the masculine nominative or vocative?
Further it does not matter either where you put MEA in the feminine
Vocative or nominative?
Also
MI OCULUS and MEUS OCULUS can mean either 'my eye!' or 'oh, my eye!'
correct (as if you were talking to it)?
is MEUS OCULUS the Nominative or the Vocative?
MI OCULUS is the vocative correct?
lastly
TOM! uses MEUS
VIRGILLI! uses MI
correct?
thanks
1) MEUS can be used in either the masculine vocative or masculine nominative
2) MI in the masucline can only be used in the vocative
MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)
O, MEUS GLADI (voc.)(masc)
(MEUS is used in nom or voc as rule 1 states)
further according to rule 2 you can use either MI or MEUS in the vocative masc
example:
O, MEUS GLADI (voc)(masc)
O, MI GLADI (voc)(masc)
Also, MEA can be used in the voc feminine or the nom feminine
O, MEA AMPULLA (voc/fem)
MEA AMPULLA (nom/fem)
asking for clarifiction: it does not matter whether you put MEUS or MI
before or after the noun in the masculine nominative or vocative?
Further it does not matter either where you put MEA in the feminine
Vocative or nominative?
Also
MI OCULUS and MEUS OCULUS can mean either 'my eye!' or 'oh, my eye!'
correct (as if you were talking to it)?
is MEUS OCULUS the Nominative or the Vocative?
MI OCULUS is the vocative correct?
lastly
TOM! uses MEUS
VIRGILLI! uses MI
correct?
thanks
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
Proper names in -ius are the nouns that regularly have -i instead of -ie in the vocative singular: Vergilius, Vergili.
Only a few common nouns behave that way: filius/fili, genius/geni, volturius/volturi.
But I am not so sure about gladius. According to the default rules of the second declension, the vocative ought to be gladie (where that -e is really a variant of the stem vowel -o), but gladi may be used on the analogy of fili.
It seems to me that the vocative form of oculus is ocule, not oculus.
Only a few common nouns behave that way: filius/fili, genius/geni, volturius/volturi.
But I am not so sure about gladius. According to the default rules of the second declension, the vocative ought to be gladie (where that -e is really a variant of the stem vowel -o), but gladi may be used on the analogy of fili.
It seems to me that the vocative form of oculus is ocule, not oculus.
Salve! Verbifex sum quia creatio verborum latinorum novorum mihi placet!
MEMA INTERRETIALIA
MEMA INTERRETIALIA
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
thanks.
can anybody else verify the correctness of the rest of the
message?
thanks
can anybody else verify the correctness of the rest of the
message?
thanks
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
Gladi is not nominative.blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)
Try this: what ending does oculus need if it is in the nominative? In the vocative?is MEUS OCULUS the Nominative or the Vocative?
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
MEUS OCULUS (nom)spiphany wrote:Gladi is not nominative.blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)
Try this: what ending does oculus need if it is in the nominative? In the vocative?is MEUS OCULUS the Nominative or the Vocative?
MI OCULUS (nom)
MEUS OCULI (voc)
MI OCULI (voc)
which of these means 'my eye!' and which 'O my eye!'
also is the rest of the stuff i put in the message (below) correct about when MEUS and MI
can be used in the nom or vocative correct and my assumption about MEA?
1) MEUS can be used in either the masculine vocative or masculine nominative
2) MI in the masucline can only be used in the vocative
MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)
O, MEUS GLADI (voc.)(masc)
(MEUS is used in nom or voc as rule 1 states)
further according to rule 2 you can use either MI or MEUS in the vocative masc
example:
O, MEUS GLADI (voc)(masc)
O, MI GLADI (voc)(masc)
Also, MEA can be used in the voc feminine or the nom feminine
O, MEA AMPULLA (voc/fem)
MEA AMPULLA (nom/fem)
asking for clarifiction: it does not matter whether you put MEUS or MI
before or after the noun in the masculine nominative or vocative?
Further it does not matter either where you put MEA in the feminine
Vocative or nominative?
thanks.
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
Note: I will talk about classical Latin of the time of Cicero and Caesar. Although I do not think that there was much alteration of the grammar chapters in question here throughout antiquity one cannot safely claim this for medieval texts, where you find all kinds of usages.
So you have to say: mi ocule
Also a nominative of the possessive pronoun (meus) is never used with a vocative. You must always use mi.
Thus: my eye! mi ocule, o my eye! o mi ocule! (or ocule mi position does not make a difference in the case of mi; if the question should arise: o has to be placed before the noun).
None of these forms is correct. First of all the vocative of oculus is ocule (only words ending in -ius have a vocative ending in i).MEUS OCULUS (nom)
MI OCULUS (nom)
MEUS OCULI (voc)
MI OCULI (voc)
which of these means 'my eye!' and which 'O my eye!'
So you have to say: mi ocule
Also a nominative of the possessive pronoun (meus) is never used with a vocative. You must always use mi.
Thus: my eye! mi ocule, o my eye! o mi ocule! (or ocule mi position does not make a difference in the case of mi; if the question should arise: o has to be placed before the noun).
As said above 1) is wrong so1) MEUS can be used in either the masculine vocative or masculine nominative
2) MI in the masucline can only be used in the vocative
is wrong too. mi gladi! my sword! Remember to use this only if you want to directly adress your sword (which is a rather weird thing to do...)MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)
O, MEUS GLADI (voc.)(masc)
Yes, because there is no special form for the vocative case for the words ending in -a (it is identical to the nominative).Also, MEA can be used in the voc feminine or the nom feminine
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
So:Clemens wrote:None of these forms is correct. First of all the vocative of oculus is ocule (only words ending in -ius have a vocative ending in i).MEUS OCULUS (nom)
MI OCULUS (nom)
MEUS OCULI (voc)
MI OCULI (voc)
which of these means 'my eye!' and which 'O my eye!'
So you have to say: mi ocule
Also a nominative of the possessive pronoun (meus) is never used with a vocative. You must always use mi.
Thus: my eye! mi ocule, o my eye! o mi ocule! (or ocule mi position does not make a difference in the case of mi; if the question should arise: o has to be placed before the noun).
As said above 1) is wrong so1) MEUS can be used in either the masculine vocative or masculine nominative
is wrong too. mi gladi! my sword!MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)
O, MEUS GLADI (voc.)(masc)
MEUS OCULUS
MI OCULUS
both mean 'my eye' as in possesion
while
MI OCULE
means 'o my eye!'
i could be wrong so i am asking for a second opinion on this. if i remember right
there was a messge on this system about 2 months ago where somebody said
that 'MEUS OCULI' is incorrect but acceptable in rare circumstances. is this
true?
thanks
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
No, only oculus meus is correct. You cannot mix cases as you like. The possessive pronoun has to agree with its noun in case, number and gender.MEUS OCULUS
MI OCULUS
both mean 'my eye' as in possesion
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
So only MEUS OCULUS means 'my eye' as in possesion (nominative)blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote: So:
MEUS OCULUS
MI OCULUS
both mean 'my eye' as in possesion
while
MI OCULE
means 'o my eye!'
thanks
only MI OCULE means 'oh! my eye' as if you were talking to it (vocative)
then MI OCULUS and MEUS OCULE are both incorrect right?
Also about this:
you say #1 is wrongblutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote: 1) MEUS can be used in either the masculine vocative or masculine nominative
2) MI in the masucline can only be used in the vocative
i could swear somebody wrote the rule once on this system. in fact i found
this in an earlier message under a different topic:
As i said in the quote above it says that the vocative of meus can be meus. what does this mean?metrodus wrote:
As I understand it, the vocativus of meus is meus, and only forms the alternative version , mi, by a process of analogy with proper names ending in -ius, which take i in the vocative, e.g. virgilius, virgili. Filius, fili and genius, geni also are formed by this analogical process. The accusative of ego, is "me". These matters have been pointed out be previous posters. Sometimes the vocativus is meus, sometimes it is mi.
I'm not really sure I understand your question, perhaps you need to ask it in a different way, so that you difficulty is clearer. What textbook are you using? Knowing this would also be helpful.
it implies the following:
1) MEUS + Voc or Nom (masc)
thanks.
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
Apparently (as it is discussed in the grammar books), there are Classical Latin sentences in our manuscripts which use MEUS as a vocative. However, Allen & Greenough (the grammar book) says MEUS is used as a vocative "rarely."As i said in the quote above it says that the vocative of meus can be meus. what does this mean?
it implies the following:
1) MEUS + Voc or Nom (masc)
MI is the usual vocative. Catullus, addressing his friend "mi Fabulle," leaps to mind. Cicero, writing to Papirius Paetus, always writes "mi Paete." And of course, "mi amice" is the common saying.
So, you are right that MEUS is given in the A&G grammar book as a technically correct Vocative. But I suspect that you would confuse your readers/listeners if you were to use MEUS as a vocative -- they would be expecting MI and would stumble over MEUS trying to construe it as a nominative.
So, my recommendation would be:
1) MEUS OCULUS (nominative subject) clare videt.
and preferably:
2) MI OCULE (vocative), clare vide!
Vale mi sodalis, /Iulia
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
Well, let's have a look into a Grammar:
"rarely meus" and this is only used in special circumstances such as:
With older authors:
sed, amabo, oculus meus, quin lectis nos actutum commendamus? (Plautus, Persa 765)
Da, meus ocellus, mea rosa, mi anime, mea voluptas,
Leonida, argentum mihi, ne nos diiunge amantis. (Plautus, Asinaria 664)
Also sometimes with Augustan poets:
proice tela manu, sanguis meus! (Vergilius, Aneis VI, 835)
Until that time the examples have in common that meus is only (and rarely) used with nouns that use the nominative form for the vocative (either because there is no special form for the vocative as with sanguis or because the nominative form is used, which is another rare usage. The examples for this are oculus and ocellus).
In later times there is a little more variation but meus is still rare with a vocative. Another important point is that all these examples are taken from poetical texts. Meus for mi is as far as I know not found in the texts of Cicero or Caesar for example.
So to summarize: You should rember as a rule that mi is voc. sg. m of meus but bear in mind that there exist some special exceptions that should not be imitated if you want to produce standard Latin prose.
(Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar for Schools and Colleges, §145)These are really adjectives of the First and Second Declensions, and are so declined (see §§ 110-112). But meus has regularly mī (rarely meus ) in the vocative singular masculine.
"rarely meus" and this is only used in special circumstances such as:
With older authors:
sed, amabo, oculus meus, quin lectis nos actutum commendamus? (Plautus, Persa 765)
Da, meus ocellus, mea rosa, mi anime, mea voluptas,
Leonida, argentum mihi, ne nos diiunge amantis. (Plautus, Asinaria 664)
Also sometimes with Augustan poets:
proice tela manu, sanguis meus! (Vergilius, Aneis VI, 835)
Until that time the examples have in common that meus is only (and rarely) used with nouns that use the nominative form for the vocative (either because there is no special form for the vocative as with sanguis or because the nominative form is used, which is another rare usage. The examples for this are oculus and ocellus).
In later times there is a little more variation but meus is still rare with a vocative. Another important point is that all these examples are taken from poetical texts. Meus for mi is as far as I know not found in the texts of Cicero or Caesar for example.
So to summarize: You should rember as a rule that mi is voc. sg. m of meus but bear in mind that there exist some special exceptions that should not be imitated if you want to produce standard Latin prose.
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
this doesnt look right.blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote: So only MEUS OCULUS means 'my eye' as in possesion (nominative)
only MI OCULE means 'oh! my eye' as if you were talking to it (vocative)
MEUS OCULUS is genative. correct? MI OCULE is voc
thanks
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
Let me ask for how long and with what book you have been learning Latin until now. That makes it easier to tune the response to your needs.
meus oculus is nominative sg. the genitive would be mei oculi
meus oculus is nominative sg. the genitive would be mei oculi
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
MEUS OCULUS is Nominative
MEI OCULI is the Genitive
dont they both mean 'my eye'? what is the difference between
a possesive adj and the genitive?
the book im using is from 1962 - some really old thing
thanks
MEI OCULI is the Genitive
dont they both mean 'my eye'? what is the difference between
a possesive adj and the genitive?
the book im using is from 1962 - some really old thing
thanks
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
The genitive can express possession and the possessive pronoun as well (that would be obvious ). But they are different concepts:
The cases denote the function of a word in the sentence:
Filius meus librum legit. - My son is reading a book. (or My son read a book. but that does not matter for the moment.)
The nominative denotes the subject, the person or thing that "is acting". Here filius is nominative and thus it is the subject of the sentence.
The accusative denotes the direct object; here librum.
The genitive has several functions and one of them is denoting possession:
liber filii mei - my son's book/the book of my son
The genitive denotes the owner. So does the possessive pronoun but on another level: it is a substitute for the owner; liber filii mei -> liber suus - his book
So roughly speaking the genitive corresponds to the "of/genitive s" in English whereas the possessive pronoun corresponds to "my, your, his etc."
The cases denote the function of a word in the sentence:
Filius meus librum legit. - My son is reading a book. (or My son read a book. but that does not matter for the moment.)
The nominative denotes the subject, the person or thing that "is acting". Here filius is nominative and thus it is the subject of the sentence.
The accusative denotes the direct object; here librum.
The genitive has several functions and one of them is denoting possession:
liber filii mei - my son's book/the book of my son
The genitive denotes the owner. So does the possessive pronoun but on another level: it is a substitute for the owner; liber filii mei -> liber suus - his book
So roughly speaking the genitive corresponds to the "of/genitive s" in English whereas the possessive pronoun corresponds to "my, your, his etc."
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules
another question:
if you want to say 'o, my bottle!'
then it is 'O, MEA AMPULLA!' correct?
also,
both:
TOM!
VIRGILLI!
both take 'MI' as in
O, MI TOM!
O, MI VIRGILLI!
thanks
if you want to say 'o, my bottle!'
then it is 'O, MEA AMPULLA!' correct?
also,
both:
TOM!
VIRGILLI!
both take 'MI' as in
O, MI TOM!
O, MI VIRGILLI!
thanks
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