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MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

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MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:45 pm

Just reviewing:

O, MEA AMPULLA (nom.)(fem)
O, MEUS GLADIUS (nom.)(masc)

O, MEA AMPULLA (voc.)(fem)
O, MEUS GLADIUS (voc.)(masc)
O, MI GLADIUS (voc.)(masc)

Also,

O DOMINE MEUS (meus is afterwards because it is fem)
O MI DEUS (mi is before because it is masc)

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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby spiphany » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:01 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:O DOMINE MEUS (meus is afterwards because it is fem)
O MI DEUS (mi is before because it is masc)

Both dominus and deus are masculine nouns
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:09 pm

then what is the rule for correct placement of MEUS and MI
with relation to the noun?

also - is the stuff on 'Oh, mea ampulla' etc correct?

thanks.
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby Twpsyn » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:53 am

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:
O, MEA AMPULLA (nom.)(fem)
O, MEUS GLADIUS (nom.)(masc)


If you say O, then you generally are using the vocative, not the nominative. But those are the nominative forms, yes.

O, MEA AMPULLA (voc.)(fem)
O, MEUS GLADIUS (voc.)(masc)
O, MI GLADIUS (voc.)(masc)


The vocative singular of gladius would be gladi, though it is not often seen for words like 'sword'.

O DOMINE MEUS (meus is afterwards because it is fem)
O MI DEUS (mi is before because it is masc)


The gender of a noun has no effect on where its modifiers are placed. And both those nouns are masculine. Deus is a correct vocative form.

The word meus usually has the singular masculine vocative form mi, but occasionally it appears as meus, for no better reason than euphony. In a phrase like O domine meus I might indeed expect to see the form meus instead of mi, but it could equally well be either, with no change in meaning or grammar. So both your phrases are perfectly fine, and their respective word-orders could easily be reversed with no change in meaning.
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:54 am

Rules:

1) MEUS can be used in either the masculine vocative or masculine nominative
2) MI in the masucline can only be used in the vocative

MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)
O, MEUS GLADI (voc.)(masc)

(MEUS is used in nom or voc as rule 1 states)

further according to rule 2 you can use either MI or MEUS in the vocative masc

example:

O, MEUS GLADI (voc)(masc)
O, MI GLADI (voc)(masc)

Also, MEA can be used in the voc feminine or the nom feminine

O, MEA AMPULLA (voc/fem)
MEA AMPULLA (nom/fem)

asking for clarifiction: it does not matter whether you put MEUS or MI
before or after the noun in the masculine nominative or vocative?
Further it does not matter either where you put MEA in the feminine
Vocative or nominative?


Also

MI OCULUS and MEUS OCULUS can mean either 'my eye!' or 'oh, my eye!'
correct (as if you were talking to it)?

is MEUS OCULUS the Nominative or the Vocative?
MI OCULUS is the vocative correct?

lastly

TOM! uses MEUS
VIRGILLI! uses MI

correct?

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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby Diaphanus » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:08 pm

Proper names in -ius are the nouns that regularly have -i instead of -ie in the vocative singular: Vergilius, Vergili.

Only a few common nouns behave that way: filius/fili, genius/geni, volturius/volturi.

But I am not so sure about gladius. According to the default rules of the second declension, the vocative ought to be gladie (where that -e is really a variant of the stem vowel -o), but gladi may be used on the analogy of fili.

It seems to me that the vocative form of oculus is ocule, not oculus.
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:30 pm

thanks.

can anybody else verify the correctness of the rest of the
message?

thanks
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby spiphany » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:40 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)

Gladi is not nominative.

is MEUS OCULUS the Nominative or the Vocative?

Try this: what ending does oculus need if it is in the nominative? In the vocative?
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:51 pm

spiphany wrote:
blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)

Gladi is not nominative.

is MEUS OCULUS the Nominative or the Vocative?

Try this: what ending does oculus need if it is in the nominative? In the vocative?


MEUS OCULUS (nom)
MI OCULUS (nom)

MEUS OCULI (voc)
MI OCULI (voc)

which of these means 'my eye!' and which 'O my eye!'

also is the rest of the stuff i put in the message (below) correct about when MEUS and MI
can be used in the nom or vocative correct and my assumption about MEA?

1) MEUS can be used in either the masculine vocative or masculine nominative
2) MI in the masucline can only be used in the vocative

MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)
O, MEUS GLADI (voc.)(masc)

(MEUS is used in nom or voc as rule 1 states)

further according to rule 2 you can use either MI or MEUS in the vocative masc

example:

O, MEUS GLADI (voc)(masc)
O, MI GLADI (voc)(masc)

Also, MEA can be used in the voc feminine or the nom feminine

O, MEA AMPULLA (voc/fem)
MEA AMPULLA (nom/fem)

asking for clarifiction: it does not matter whether you put MEUS or MI
before or after the noun in the masculine nominative or vocative?
Further it does not matter either where you put MEA in the feminine
Vocative or nominative?



thanks.
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby Clemens » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:18 am

Note: I will talk about classical Latin of the time of Cicero and Caesar. Although I do not think that there was much alteration of the grammar chapters in question here throughout antiquity one cannot safely claim this for medieval texts, where you find all kinds of usages.

MEUS OCULUS (nom)
MI OCULUS (nom)

MEUS OCULI (voc)
MI OCULI (voc)

which of these means 'my eye!' and which 'O my eye!'

None of these forms is correct. First of all the vocative of oculus is ocule (only words ending in -ius have a vocative ending in i).
So you have to say: mi ocule
Also a nominative of the possessive pronoun (meus) is never used with a vocative. You must always use mi.
Thus: my eye! mi ocule, o my eye! o mi ocule! (or ocule mi position does not make a difference in the case of mi; if the question should arise: o has to be placed before the noun).

1) MEUS can be used in either the masculine vocative or masculine nominative
2) MI in the masucline can only be used in the vocative


As said above 1) is wrong so

MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)
O, MEUS GLADI (voc.)(masc)


is wrong too. mi gladi! my sword! Remember to use this only if you want to directly adress your sword (which is a rather weird thing to do...)

Also, MEA can be used in the voc feminine or the nom feminine

Yes, because there is no special form for the vocative case for the words ending in -a (it is identical to the nominative).
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:39 pm

Clemens wrote:
MEUS OCULUS (nom)
MI OCULUS (nom)

MEUS OCULI (voc)
MI OCULI (voc)

which of these means 'my eye!' and which 'O my eye!'

None of these forms is correct. First of all the vocative of oculus is ocule (only words ending in -ius have a vocative ending in i).
So you have to say: mi ocule
Also a nominative of the possessive pronoun (meus) is never used with a vocative. You must always use mi.
Thus: my eye! mi ocule, o my eye! o mi ocule! (or ocule mi position does not make a difference in the case of mi; if the question should arise: o has to be placed before the noun).

1) MEUS can be used in either the masculine vocative or masculine nominative


As said above 1) is wrong so

MEUS GLADI (nom.)(masc)
O, MEUS GLADI (voc.)(masc)


is wrong too. mi gladi! my sword!


So:

MEUS OCULUS
MI OCULUS

both mean 'my eye' as in possesion

while

MI OCULE

means 'o my eye!'

i could be wrong so i am asking for a second opinion on this. if i remember right
there was a messge on this system about 2 months ago where somebody said
that 'MEUS OCULI' is incorrect but acceptable in rare circumstances. is this
true?

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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby Clemens » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:24 pm

MEUS OCULUS
MI OCULUS

both mean 'my eye' as in possesion


No, only oculus meus is correct. You cannot mix cases as you like. The possessive pronoun has to agree with its noun in case, number and gender.
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:27 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:So:

MEUS OCULUS
MI OCULUS

both mean 'my eye' as in possesion

while

MI OCULE

means 'o my eye!'


thanks


So only MEUS OCULUS means 'my eye' as in possesion (nominative)

only MI OCULE means 'oh! my eye' as if you were talking to it (vocative)

then MI OCULUS and MEUS OCULE are both incorrect right?



Also about this:

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:1) MEUS can be used in either the masculine vocative or masculine nominative
2) MI in the masucline can only be used in the vocative


you say #1 is wrong

i could swear somebody wrote the rule once on this system. in fact i found
this in an earlier message under a different topic:

metrodus wrote:
As I understand it, the vocativus of meus is meus, and only forms the alternative version , mi, by a process of analogy with proper names ending in -ius, which take i in the vocative, e.g. virgilius, virgili. Filius, fili and genius, geni also are formed by this analogical process. The accusative of ego, is "me". These matters have been pointed out be previous posters. Sometimes the vocativus is meus, sometimes it is mi.
I'm not really sure I understand your question, perhaps you need to ask it in a different way, so that you difficulty is clearer. What textbook are you using? Knowing this would also be helpful.


As i said in the quote above it says that the vocative of meus can be meus. what does this mean?

it implies the following:

1) MEUS + Voc or Nom (masc)

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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby Iulia » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:38 pm

As i said in the quote above it says that the vocative of meus can be meus. what does this mean?

it implies the following:

1) MEUS + Voc or Nom (masc)


Apparently (as it is discussed in the grammar books), there are Classical Latin sentences in our manuscripts which use MEUS as a vocative. However, Allen & Greenough (the grammar book) says MEUS is used as a vocative "rarely."

MI is the usual vocative. Catullus, addressing his friend "mi Fabulle," leaps to mind. Cicero, writing to Papirius Paetus, always writes "mi Paete." And of course, "mi amice" is the common saying.

So, you are right that MEUS is given in the A&G grammar book as a technically correct Vocative. But I suspect that you would confuse your readers/listeners if you were to use MEUS as a vocative -- they would be expecting MI and would stumble over MEUS trying to construe it as a nominative.

So, my recommendation would be:
1) MEUS OCULUS (nominative subject) clare videt.
and preferably:
2) MI OCULE (vocative), clare vide!

Vale mi sodalis, /Iulia
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby Clemens » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:58 pm

Well, let's have a look into a Grammar:

These are really adjectives of the First and Second Declensions, and are so declined (see §§ 110-112). But meus has regularly mī (rarely meus ) in the vocative singular masculine.
(Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar for Schools and Colleges, §145)

"rarely meus" and this is only used in special circumstances such as:

With older authors:

sed, amabo, oculus meus, quin lectis nos actutum commendamus? (Plautus, Persa 765)

Da, meus ocellus, mea rosa, mi anime, mea voluptas,
Leonida, argentum mihi, ne nos diiunge amantis. (Plautus, Asinaria 664)


Also sometimes with Augustan poets:

proice tela manu, sanguis meus! (Vergilius, Aneis VI, 835)

Until that time the examples have in common that meus is only (and rarely) used with nouns that use the nominative form for the vocative (either because there is no special form for the vocative as with sanguis or because the nominative form is used, which is another rare usage. The examples for this are oculus and ocellus).

In later times there is a little more variation but meus is still rare with a vocative. Another important point is that all these examples are taken from poetical texts. Meus for mi is as far as I know not found in the texts of Cicero or Caesar for example.

So to summarize: You should rember as a rule that mi is voc. sg. m of meus but bear in mind that there exist some special exceptions that should not be imitated if you want to produce standard Latin prose.
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:42 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:So only MEUS OCULUS means 'my eye' as in possesion (nominative)

only MI OCULE means 'oh! my eye' as if you were talking to it (vocative)




this doesnt look right.

MEUS OCULUS is genative. correct? MI OCULE is voc

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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby Clemens » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:00 pm

Let me ask for how long and with what book you have been learning Latin until now. That makes it easier to tune the response to your needs.

meus oculus is nominative sg. the genitive would be mei oculi
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:23 pm

MEUS OCULUS is Nominative

MEI OCULI is the Genitive

dont they both mean 'my eye'? what is the difference between
a possesive adj and the genitive?


the book im using is from 1962 - some really old thing


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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby Clemens » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:37 pm

The genitive can express possession and the possessive pronoun as well (that would be obvious ;-)). But they are different concepts:

The cases denote the function of a word in the sentence:

Filius meus librum legit. - My son is reading a book. (or My son read a book. but that does not matter for the moment.)
The nominative denotes the subject, the person or thing that "is acting". Here filius is nominative and thus it is the subject of the sentence.
The accusative denotes the direct object; here librum.


The genitive has several functions and one of them is denoting possession:

liber filii mei - my son's book/the book of my son

The genitive denotes the owner. So does the possessive pronoun but on another level: it is a substitute for the owner; liber filii mei -> liber suus - his book

So roughly speaking the genitive corresponds to the "of/genitive s" in English whereas the possessive pronoun corresponds to "my, your, his etc."
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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:49 am

another question:

if you want to say 'o, my bottle!'

then it is 'O, MEA AMPULLA!' correct?

also,

both:

TOM!
VIRGILLI!

both take 'MI' as in

O, MI TOM!
O, MI VIRGILLI!

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Re: MEUS/MI Nominative/Vocative Rules

Postby Clemens » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:20 am

Yes.
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