Textkit Logo

Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Thu May 28, 2009 3:13 am

Demonstrative adjectives proceed the nouns they modify

in the sentence HIC DUX which translates to 'this leader'
HIC is a demonstrative adjective correct?

demonstrative adjectives function like this: That man is running

it is not a substantative adjective which would have said 'He is running'

therefore i am correct that 'that man is running' is a demonstrative adj
because it is 'this leader' and not 'he is running'?

Thanks.
377 gram sent 729 vocab german 850 dutch 83 italian cold 214 spanish 450 roman
17 demo 43 icelandic
User avatar
blutoonwithcarrotandnail
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:49 pm

Re: Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby adrianus » Thu May 28, 2009 10:21 am

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:[1] Demonstrative adjectives proceed the nouns they modify
[2] in the sentence HIC DUX which translates to 'this leader' HIC is a demonstrative adjective correct?
[3] demonstrative adjectives function like this: That man is running
[4] it is not a substantative adjective which would have said 'He is running'

Salve carmencaerulecumcarotâclavoque
1. Yes, they do generally. Ita, plerumque praecedunt.
2. Yes, it est. Est, certô.
3. Yes, they do. Sic agunt.
4. No, "running" is a verb, not an adjective, here in English. Minimè. Verbum non adjectivum hîc anglicè "running" est.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby Lucus Eques » Thu May 28, 2009 1:41 pm

"running" is a participle, which is essentially an adjective in construction. We use "is running" as a verbal construction to express the progressive aspect, but "running" isolated is either a participle, as it is here, or a gerund.
User avatar
Lucus Eques
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2001
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:52 pm
Location: Tōkyō, IAPONIA

Re: Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby adrianus » Thu May 28, 2009 2:32 pm

Yes, we do call it a present participle but we must be careful to distinguish its verbal form from its participial adjectival form, especially when there are some who imagine it essentially an adjective in English.
Sanè, sic id vocamus: participium praesens. At debemus hos duos sensus verbi atque adjectivi distinguere, praesertim quòd sunt qui participium anglicè ut naturâ adjectivum habeunt.
Huddleston & Pullum, The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, 2002, p.80, wrote:Again, however, it must be emphasized that the traditional present participle is not a tensed form of the verb...
Verb-form vs participial adjectiveè
As with the past participle, we need to distinguish cases where the word in question is a verb from those where it is an adjective. Compare:
[15] i. They are entertaining the prime minister and her husband [form of verb]
ii. The show was entertaining. [participial adjective]
iii. Her parents are entertaining. [ambiguous]


Note that, in English, you would not say "killing" is an adjective in "She was arrested for killing the man". It is a verb (traditionally analysed as gerund). It is a distinct gerundial noun in "She was arrested for the killing of the man".
Nota benè quomodo in sententiis anglicis suprâ citatis agat "killing". In aliâ ut verbum (et gerundium traditionale), aliâ ut planè gerundium.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby adrianus » Thu May 28, 2009 3:10 pm

De distinctione apud H&P praeter actionem gerundii anglicii ut verbum ut nomen.
A note on nouns and verbs with traditional gerund in English from H&P.
Huddleston & Pullum (p.82) wrote:Nouns are characteristically modified by adjectives, but the corresponding modifiers of verbs are adverbs:
[21] i. He was expelled for wantonly killing the birds. [adverb + verb]
ii. She had witnessed the wanton killing of the birds. [adjective + noun]
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby adrianus » Thu May 28, 2009 4:11 pm

Wrongly posted, but let me say this: in "He is running" the word "running" is verbal rather than adjectival because we cannot say "he is very/too running" (H&P, p.81).
Perperàm epistulam misi. Dicam autem hoc: "running" species verbi non adjectivi est, quià nec "very" nec "too" anglicè ei addatur.

Don't analyze (or construe) English as if it were Latin. Typically in English, "is running" is described as a verb phrase. There it is complex and contains two verbs: an auxiliary verb "is" and a main verb "running". Yes, "running" is a present participle and "run" (in "he has run") is a past participle and they are part of the verb.
Noli anglicum ità ut latinum analyzare (vel construere). Solet anglicè "is running" clausula ut "verb phrase" (locutio verbalis enim) describi. Quae locutio bina verba continens, videlicet verbum princeps "running" enim atque verbum auxiliarum "is" enim, ibidem intricata est. Hîc "running" pars verbi est etsi simul participium praesens, tanquàm participium praeteritum est "run" in "he has run".
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat May 30, 2009 2:28 am

adrianus wrote:
blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:[4] it is not a substantative adjective which would have said 'He is running'


4. No, "running" is a verb, not an adjective, here in English. Minimè. Verbum non adjectivum hîc anglicè "running" est.


i could swear i posted a reply to this 4 hours ago but its not on the system

If 'He is running' is an example of a substantative adjective

then would

'that man is correct' have been the example of a demonstrative adjective?

if a verb such as 'running' was allowed with substatative adjectives why are verbs
allowed with substatative adjectives but not demonstrative adjectives?

thanks.

thanks.
377 gram sent 729 vocab german 850 dutch 83 italian cold 214 spanish 450 roman
17 demo 43 icelandic
User avatar
blutoonwithcarrotandnail
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:49 pm

Re: Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby adrianus » Sat May 30, 2009 9:53 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're talking about the latin for "he is running" with a pronoun, "ille currit", aren't you? Here the pronoun "ille" is alone (without an accompanying noun), a demonstrative and a substantive (because it stands in place of a noun). In English, you could translate it as "That man is running" or "He is the one running", but we're talking about the Latin, not the English, right? If I had said just "Currit" for "He is running", the subject would not have had a special stress.
In the sentence, "ille vir currit" (That man is running" or "That very man is running"), "ille" is a pronoun, a demonstrative,—and an adjective because it qualifies the noun "vir".

Si erro, me corrigas. Hâc de sententiâ cum pronomine latinè nonnè tractas: "ille currit"? Hîc "ille" pronomen solum (sine nomine cui addictum) est, demonstrativum atque substantivum (quòd pro nomine stat). In anglicum ut "That man is running" seu "He is the one running" vertere potes, at latinè non anglicè tractamus, nonné? Pronomine in adhibendo, subjectum emphasim habet. Si modò "Currit" dixissem (pro anglicè "He is running"), subjectum emphasin non habuisset.
Cum "ille vir currit" (pro anglicè "That man is running" or "That very man is running"), "ille" ibidem pronomen est, et demonstrativum,—et adjectivum quià ad "vir" nomen addicitur.
Last edited by adrianus on Sat May 30, 2009 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby adrianus » Sat May 30, 2009 1:04 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:i could swear i posted a reply to this 4 hours ago but its not on the system

The same thing (or a similar one) happened to me just now. I edited my last post (Sat May 30, 2009 9:53 am), previewed it, posted the new version and checked it online. Then, half-an-hour later, it had reverted to the old version. I changed it again. Strange! Unless both of us just suffered a similar memory lapse, and we didn't in fact send what we wrote but somehow cancelled it. Which isn't completely impossible! It can be done! Maybe I only think I checked it because I might be falsely imagining another instance.
Idem (vel simile) modò mihi evenit. Epistulam meam proximam correxi, tum eam in antecessam inspexi, tunc versionem novam misi, dein commutationes per interrete verificavi. Deniquè, post semihoram, eam in versionem pristinam reversam esse animadverti. Denuò correxi. Mirum est! Nisi uter nostrorum lapsum memoriae similem passus sit, et quod scripsimus verùm non misimus sed aliquâ abrogavimus. Quod vix possible est! Fieri enim potest! Forsàn me id verifica(vi)sse fictè imaginor, quoniàm istud tempus cum alio confundam vel misceam.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat May 30, 2009 4:31 pm

adrianus wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're talking about the latin for "he is running" with a pronoun, "ille currit", aren't you?
In the sentence, "ille vir currit" (That man is running" or "That very man is running"), "ille" is a pronoun, a demonstrative,—and an adjective because it qualifies the noun "vir".



So is this correct?

Substantative Adjective: ILLE CURRIT (he is running)
Demonstrartive Adjective: ILLE VIR CURRIT (that man is running)

Is this correct?

This implies that the verb can be used with the demonstrative adjective
which isnt what is was told earlier in the sentence: 'he is running'

Look at your earlier reply:
adrianus wrote:
[1] Demonstrative adjectives proceed the nouns they modify
[2] in the sentence HIC DUX which translates to 'this leader' HIC is a demonstrative adjective correct?
[3] demonstrative adjectives function like this: That man is running
[4] it is not a substantative adjective which would have said 'He is running'


Salve carmencaerulecumcarotâclavoque
1. Yes, they do generally. Ita, plerumque praecedunt.
2. Yes, it est. Est, certô.
3. Yes, they do. Sic agunt.
4. No, "running" is a verb, not an adjective, here in English. Minimè. Verbum non adjectivum hîc anglicè "running" est.



#4 here says 'he is running' is wrong as a substantative adjective but the sentence 'ILLE VIR CURRIT' seems
to imply that there is some confusion and that it is allowable in different langauge pretexts

Thanks.


-I am the nice one (god time bandits)
377 gram sent 729 vocab german 850 dutch 83 italian cold 214 spanish 450 roman
17 demo 43 icelandic
User avatar
blutoonwithcarrotandnail
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:49 pm

Re: Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby adrianus » Sat May 30, 2009 10:40 pm

When you said the following, I was trying to understand what you meant. No doubt I guessed incorrectly.
Cum ità dicebas, ego id quod dicere volebas intellegere conabam. Sine dubito, malè conjeci.
blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:[4] it is not a substantative adjective which would have said 'He is running'
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Demonstrative Adj and HIC

Postby adrianus » Sat May 30, 2009 11:37 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:So is this correct?

Substantative Adjective: ILLE CURRIT (he is running)
Demonstrartive Adjective: ILLE VIR CURRIT (that man is running)

Not completely. Non absolutè est.
ILLE, in ILLE CURRIT, is a substantive demonstrative (pronoun) //substantivum et demonstrativum (pronomen) est.
ILLE, in ILLE VIR CURRIT, is an adjectival demonstrative (pronoun) //adjectivum et demonstrativum (pronomen) est.

As I said above//Ut suprà dixi
..."ille currit"... Here the pronoun "ille" is alone (without an accompanying noun), a demonstrative and a substantive (because it stands in place of a noun)...
In the sentence, "ille vir currit" (That man is running" or "That very man is running"), "ille" is a pronoun, a demonstrative,—and an adjective because it qualifies the noun "vir".

..."ille currit"... Hîc "ille" pronomen solum (sine nomine cui addictum) est, demonstrativum atque substantivum (quòd pro nomine stat)...
Cum "ille vir currit" (pro anglicè "That man is running" or "That very man is running"), "ille" ibidem pronomen est, et demonstrativum,—et adjectivum quià ad "vir" nomen addicitur.

Furthermore //Etiam
blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:This implies that the verb can be used with the demonstrative adjective
which isnt what is was told earlier in the sentence: 'he is running'

You are right. I didn't say that, indeed. Nor did I say you cannot use a verb with a demonstrative adjective.
Rectè dicis. Certè id non dixi. Nec adversum.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 30 guests