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Could somebody grade my translations?

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Could somebody grade my translations?

Postby Quis ut Deus » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:19 pm

Salvete omnes!

I was wondering if somebody could help me check these translations?

"Sciō multōs scrīpsisse Themistoclen dum Xerxēs rēgnābat in Asiam trānsisse.
Sed egō potissimum Thucydidī crēdō, quod aetāte proximus dē iīs quī illōrum
temporum historiam relīquērunt, et eiusdem cīvitātis fuit. Is ait ad Artaxerxen
eum vēnisse atque hīs verbīs epistulam mīsisse: Themistoclēs vēnī ad tē, quī
plūrima mala omnium Graecōrum in domum tuam intulī quam diū mihi
necesse fuit adversum patrem tuum bellāre patriamque meam dēfendere."

Here's my translation:

" know I have written to many about Themistocles while Xerxes ruled in Asia.

But, I believe Thucydides is the most powerful, because at that time near to them which of that time they abandoned the story, and it was the same city. He said to Artaxerxes that he came and also he sent these words in a letter: Themistocles I came to you, who brought a lot of evil to all the Greeks. In your house I urged you much longer than was necessary and opposite your father to wage war and defend my country."

YUCK!

Here's the other one:

"Strength, fellowship and proud to be British"

Here's my piddly attempt:

"Vires, societas, et decum Britannicus esse habens"

Thanks again for putting up with my horrible Latin!

Gratias vobis ago!

Valete!
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Re: Could somebody grade my translations?

Postby thesaurus » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:08 am

Quis ut Deus wrote:Salvete omnes!

I was wondering if somebody could help me check these translations?

"Sciō multōs scrīpsisse Themistoclen dum Xerxēs rēgnābat in Asiam trānsisse.
Sed egō potissimum Thucydidī crēdō, quod aetāte proximus dē iīs quī illōrum
temporum historiam relīquērunt, et eiusdem cīvitātis fuit. Is ait ad Artaxerxen
eum vēnisse atque hīs verbīs epistulam mīsisse: Themistoclēs vēnī ad tē, quī
plūrima mala omnium Graecōrum in domum tuam intulī quam diū mihi
necesse fuit adversum patrem tuum bellāre patriamque meam dēfendere."

" know I have written to many about Themistocles while Xerxes ruled in Asia. But, I believe Thucydides is the most powerful, because at that time near to them which of that time they abandoned the story, and it was the same city. He said to Artaxerxes that he came and also he sent these words in a letter: Themistocles I came to you, who brought a lot of evil to all the Greeks. In your house I urged you much longer than was necessary and opposite your father to wage war and defend my country."


"Scio multos scripsisse Themistoclen dum Xerxes regnabat in Asian transisse" = "I know [that] many have written that Themistocles crossed into Asia while Xerxes was ruling." Writing "to many" would need a dative of indirect object. Rather, multos is the accusative subject of the indirect statment, "I know that." Because of this confusion you probably inadvertently forgot "transisse." Better punctuation could help the Latin, for example "... (dum Xerxes regnabat in Asiam) transisse."

"Sed egō potissimum Thucydidī crēdō" = "But I especially believe Thucydides." Credo takes the dative (mihi crede!), and the author's name is dative here. "Potissimum" is here an adverb meaning "chiefly, principally, especially." (BTW I missread this sentence in the first explanation I was writing, so it happens to all of us).

"quod aetāte proximus dē iīs quī illōrum temporum historiam relīquērunt" = "Because out of all of those who left a history of those times he was closest in age [to the events in question]." The first reason why he like's Themistocles's account best. "fuit" is assumed here next to proximus, because it occurs in the next clause. "Aetate" is ablative of respect or some such thing. You had trouble because the clause is hard to make sense of if you don't catch these as points explaining his feelings about the author.

"et eiusdem cīvitātis fuit" = "and he was of/from the same city." This is the second reason given. The subject is still Themistocles.

"Is ait ad Artaxerxen eum vēnisse atque hīs verbīs epistulam mīsisse" = "He said that he had come to Artaxerses and that he sent [him] a letter with these words." It's tricky from an English perspective, but "ad" means "to" in physical terms here, as in approach. As with "scripsisse" above, you'd need a dative here. Themistocles is "eum," the subject of the indirect speech and the two verbs.

"Themistoclēs vēnī ad tē" = "I, Themistocles, came to you." Another hard point to get a hang of is that that a nominative used with a first person verb is a way of equating the speaker and that particular word. I mean that it's in apposition. It's just like saying "Ego (Themistocles) veni."

"quī plūrima mala omnium Graecōrum in domum tuam intulī" = "[I] who inflicted on your home the many evils of all the Greeks." "plurima mala omnium Graecorum" is the object of "intuli," and he's throwing it right "in domum tuam."

"quam diū mihi necesse fuit adversum patrem tuum bellāre patriamque meam dēfendere" = "As long as it was necessary for me to wage war against your country and defend my own [country]." "quam diu" is an adverb meaning "as long as." "mihi necesse fuit" is an impersonal expression for "it was necessary for me," and takes the dative. The object of this "necesse fuit" are the infinitives "bellare" and "defendere," which themselves have objects. "Bellare" is construed with an adverb "adversum," specifying against whom one is fighting. "Defendere" has a regular accusative.

Hope this helps! Don't let your frustration stop you. It's often just recognizing the pattern of the sentence and everything snaps into place. That comes with practice.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Could somebody grade my translations?

Postby Quis ut Deus » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:15 am

Gratias vobis ago!

I'm going to try to digest this!

Salve Thesaure! :D
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Re: Could somebody grade my translations?

Postby adrianus » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:01 am

I know that many wrote that Themistocles travelled into Asia during the reign of Xerxes. But I believe more particularly Thycydides [i.e., I am more inclined to believe what Thycydides, the historian, says], because he was of the same nationality and closer to the period regarding those who bypassed [corrigendum: 'left' is right, as Thesaurus says, not 'bypassed' as I thought at first] the history of those times. He said that he [Themistocles] visited Artaxerxes and sent a letter with these words: "I Themistocles have come to you, as one who, of all the Greeks, has inflicted the most damage on your homeland for as long as I had to in warring with your father and defending my native land."

Sorry, I didn't see what had been written before. Thesaurus's post is great and spot on. I offer nothing more, nothing better.
Me excusetis. Non vidi quod scriptum erat. Et perbona et adcuratissima epistula thesauri. Nihil plus praebeo, nihil melius.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Could somebody grade my translations?

Postby thesaurus » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:38 am

adrianus wrote:
I know that many wrote that Themistocles travelled into Asian during the reign of Xerxes. But I believe more particularly with Thycydides [i.e., I am more inclined to believe what Thycydides, the historian, says], because he was of the same nationality and closer to the period regarding those who bypassed the history of those times. He said that he [Themistoclen] visited Artaxerxen and sent a letter with these words: "I Themistocles have come to you, as one who, of all the Greeks, has inflicted the most damage on your homeland for as long as I had to in warring with your father and defending my native land."

Sorry, I didn't see what had been written before. Thesaurus's post is great and spot on. I offer nothing more, nothing better.
Me excusetis. Non vidi quod scriptum erat. Et perbona et adcuratissima epistula thesauri. Nihil plus praebeo, nihil melius.


That's funny, because before you wrote that "Me excusetis" I was about to praise the greater accuracy of your translation and ask about points where we differed.

"the most damage" is clearly the correct reading for "plurima mala," not "many" as I wrote.

Regarding your "closer to the period regarding those who bypassed the history of those times" versus my "out of all of those who left a history of those times he was closest in age [to the events in question]": I was uncertain about the "de iis" here and I fear that I have mistranslated it. I'm not sure if it's permissible to read "de" as a means of comparison, as I have done. However, since it can "designate the whole from which a part is taken," I thought I could construe the sentence this way: "De iis [viris] qui illorum temporum historiam relinquerunt, [Themistocles] aetate proximus [illorum] [eo tempori(?)] [fuit]." That is a lot of conjecturing...

However "historia" seems to refer exclusively to an account of historical events, not the events themselves. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by "bypassed the history of those times." Although I do see that "relinquo" can mean "To leave behind one by death." ("ea mortua est: reliquit filiam adulescentulam", Ter. Heaut. 3, 3, 41). That's a very interesting reading and I like its imagery.

"as one who, of all the Greeks, has inflicted the most damage": am I misreading this by taking the genitive as a modifier of "plurima mala" and not "qui"? Yours makes more sense.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Could somebody grade my translations?

Postby thesaurus » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:52 am

Quis ut Deus wrote:"Strength, fellowship and proud to be British"

Here's my piddly attempt:

"Vires, societas, et decum Britannicus esse habens"


I have a hard time translating this phrase because I don't like the way the English is phrased. Strength and fellowship are nouns, but "proud" is an adjective, so they don't really make a hendiatris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendiatris (ha! there's a word that I've never had the opportunity to use before!). "Strength, fellowship, and British pride" (or much worse "pride about being British") would work better.

"Vires, societas, et gloria Britanica."

Your translation is interesting because you've negotiated this challenge in the Latin by making "proud" a noun (although "decus, decoris" is a 3rd declension neuter), though I'm not sure the final product works. I'd read it as "having/thinking that strength, fellowship, and pride is to be British."

(And your Latin is not horrible.)

Cum compositio mihi non placuerit, hanc sententiam (ut scriptam) latine vertere mihi visum est difficilem. Vires societasque sunt nomina, sed verbum "celsus" adiectivum est, itaque haec haud exemplar ἓν διὰ τριῶν fit (eia! numquam sum arbitratus locum eius verbi utendi mihi accideret!). "Vires, societas, et gloria Britanica" melior auribus sonat.

Versio tua nota ob ingenium est, sed dubito an intellegi possit.

(At latinitas tua haud "horrida" est, immo suava et semper melior.)
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Could somebody grade my translations?

Postby adrianus » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:42 am

thesaurus wrote:I was uncertain about the "de iis" here and I fear that I have mistranslated it.

Me, too (regarding "de iis"). However, on my part, I now know, it was just muddled thinking. I confused "iis" with those about whom the details were lacking in exact histories and so twisted the sense of "reliquerunt". Your interpretation is better, surely.

Et ego (de "de iis"). Meâ parte autem, nubilosa sententia modò erat, nunc scio. Sensum "iis" pronominis cum eo illorum de quibus minutiae certis in historiis carebant miscui. Et proinde significationem "reliquerunt" verbi depravavi. Nonnè tua interpretatio praeferenda est.


Dicam: "Ego, et virtutem ac communitatem superbiamque Britannicae civitatis habens, ità credo... = "I, having the strength, fellowship and pride of British citizenship, think the following..." [/i]
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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