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Mind numbing confusion...

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Mind numbing confusion...

Postby Einhard » Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:01 pm

I'm slowly and rather painfully working my way through the Practice & Review and Sententiae Antiquae sections in Wheelock, and using Benissimus' excellent key to to check my own answers. When there's a difference between both sets of answers, it's invariably because I'm wrong, but I can always work through it and see where I erred. However, I'm working on Chapter 23 at the moment, and there's two sentences in the P&R for which my translation is totally at odds with the key, and I can't figure out where I am going wrong. I've been sitting here for about half an hour staring blankly at the page and getting more and more confused, so if anyone could help me figure it out I'd appreciate it.

First off, we have no. 3, which goes as follows:

W. Certi fructus pacis ab territo vulgo atque senatu cupiebantur.

B. The certain fruits of peace used to be wanted by the frightened commoners and also by the Senate.

E. Terrified by the common people and the Senate, the certain fruits of peace were desired.

W represents the sentence in Wheelock, B is Benissimus' translation, and E is my own attempt. I know that "territo" is the perfect passive participle and so I translate is along the lines of "terrified, having been terrified" and link "ab" with "vulgo" and "senatu" as ablatives. Thus, as I translate it, the same people who are terrified by the Romans, seek the fruits of peace. Yet, the key seems to have "territo" as an adjective. I know that participles can act as nouns in certain instances, but I still can't get my head around this one.


Secondly and lastly, no. 7 is also slowly driving me mad:

W. Si mihi eum educandum committes, studia eius formare ab infantia incipium.

B. If you entrust him to me to be brought up, I will begin to shape his studies from infancy.

E. If, having been educated, you will entrust him to me, I will begin to shape his studies from infancy.

I have "educandum" translated as a perfect passive participle meaning "having been educated" and referring to the gaurdian of the boy, or the addressee....Never mind, I've worked it out!! Typical!! Why couldn't this have happened an hour ago and saved me all this time?!! "educandum" is the future passive participle, and thus can be translated "to be educated". I really should pay more attention to forms!! I still have no idea of the first sentence though, so the effort hasn't been completely wasted! If anyone wants to step up and show me where I'm going wrong with it, I'll drink a beer in ther honour tonight!

Thanks,
Einhard.
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Re: Mind numbing confusion...

Postby benissimus » Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:49 pm

Einhard wrote:I've been sitting here for about half an hour staring blankly at the page and getting more and more confused

sounds like me, studying chemistry.

W. Certi fructus pacis ab territo vulgo atque senatu cupiebantur.
B. The certain fruits of peace used to be wanted by the frightened commoners and also by the Senate.
E. Terrified by the common people and the Senate, the certain fruits of peace were desired.


I know that "territo" is the perfect passive participle and so I translate is along the lines of "terrified, having been terrified" and link "ab" with "vulgo" and "senatu" as ablatives. Thus, as I translate it, the same people who are terrified by the Romans, seek the fruits of peace.

your translation requires territo to be in agreement with fructus. this does not work logically because fruits cannot be terrified, and does not work grammatically because territo is in agreement with vulgo and senatu. you must translate it in such a way that it is the vulgus and senatus that are territus. it also seems you are taking the "ab" as expressing the agent of the passive territo, but it is actually expressing the agent of the passive verb cupiebantur. hope that helps get you there.

Yet, the key seems to have "territo" as an adjective. I know that participles can act as nouns in certain instances, but I still can't get my head around this one.

"frightened" can be the passive participle of "frighten," just as "terrified" can be the passive participle from "terrify" - it just depends on how you look at it. besides, passive participles in both Latin and English are often used as adjectives and they really blur the line a lot of the time (you will probably find territus, -a, -um in any full Latin dictionary).
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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