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Genitive of the Whole

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Genitive of the Whole

Postby Einhard » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:19 pm

Hey all,

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I have a query about the Genitive of the Whole and its use with "milia" that's been puzzling me slightly. As you probably all know, and of which Wheelock has just informed me, if one wants to write "10,000 men" in Latin, the GOW is used and the phrase is written "milia vivorum". My question is , how does one say "10,000 of the men"? I presume the same form is used and one figures it out through context but I want to be sure, and Wheelock doesn't mention it. Thanks in advance,

Einhard.
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Re: Genitive of the Whole

Postby thesaurus » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:43 pm

Einhard wrote:Hey all,

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I have a query about the Genitive of the Whole and its use with "milia" that's been puzzling me slightly. As you probably all know, and of which Wheelock has just informed me, if one wants to write "10,000 men" in Latin, the GOW is used and the phrase is written "milia vivorum". My question is , how does one say "10,000 of the men"? I presume the same form is used and one figures it out through context but I want to be sure, and Wheelock doesn't mention it. Thanks in advance,

Einhard.


I'm going off intuition, but I think you would want to use a preposition, like "decem milia ex eis [viris]."
Solùm coniecto, sed arbitror tibi praepositionem utendam esse, exempli gratiâ "decem milia ex eis [viris]."

Ah! Here's some proof from Lewis and Short. It says that "ex" is used generally "where a going out or forth, a coming or springing out of any thing is conceivable."
Heia! Ecce indicium ex libro Lewis et Short! Dicunt praepositionem "e" usui esse cum motus huc vel illuc significetur, vel generatim cum aliquid inire exireque intellegi possit.
ex or ē wrote:B. In specifying a multitude from which something is taken, or of which it forms a part, out of, of: qui ex civitate in senatum, ex senatu in hoc consilium delecti estis, Cic. Rosc. Am. 3 fin. : e vectoribus sorte ductus, id. Rep. 1, 34 : ecquis est ex tanto populo, qui? etc., id. Rab. Post. 17 : homo ex numero disertorum postulabat, ut, etc., id. de Or. 1, 37, 168 : Q. Fulgentius, ex primo hastato (sc. ordine) legionis XIV., i. e. a soldier of the first division of hastati of the 14th legion, Caes. B. C. 1, 46; v. hastatus: e barbaris ipsis nulli erant maritimi, Cic. Rep. 2, 4 : unus ex illis decemviris, id. ib. 2, 37 : ex omnibus seculis vix tria aut quatuor nominantur paria amicorum, id. Lael. 4, 15 : aliquis ex vobis, id. Cael. 3, 7 ; id. Fam. 13, 1 fin.: id enim ei ex ovo videbatur aurum declarasse; reliquum, argentum, this of the egg, id. Div. 2, 65 : quo e collegio (sc. decemvirorum), id. Rep. 2, 36 : virgines ex sacerdotio Vestae, Flor. 1, 13, 12 : alia ex hoc quaestu, Ter. Hec. 5, 1, 29 Ruhnk.; cf.: fuit eodem ex studio vir eruditus apud patres nostros, Cic. Mur. 36 ; Ov. Am. 2, 5, 54; Sen. Ben. 3, 9; id. Ep. 52, 3: qui sibi detulerat ex latronibus suis principatum, Cic. Phil. 2, 3 : est tibi ex his, qui assunt, bella copia, id. Rep. 2, 40 : Batavi non multum ex ripa, sed insulam Rheni amnis colunt, Tac. G. 29 : acerrimum autem ex omnibus nostris sensibus esse sensum videndi, Cic. de Or. 2, 87, 357 : ex tribus istis modis rerum publicarum velim scire quod optimum judices, id. Rep. 1, 30 ; cf. id. ib. 1, 35 et saep.--
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Genitive of the Whole

Postby Einhard » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:04 pm

Thanks for that thesaurus. You're correct. Now I can move on and try to figure out some other of the many thousands of Latin constructions that hurt my brain when I think about them!
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Re: Genitive of the Whole

Postby no_fuse » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:36 pm

Einhard wrote:Hey all,
My question is , how does one say "10,000 of the men"? I presume the same form is used and one figures it out through context but I want to be sure, and Wheelock doesn't mention it. Thanks in advance,
Einhard.


You're correct when you say the same form can be used. It's called the partitive genitive. Thesaurus is also right about using a preposition, of course. Both are pretty common.
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