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Perf Passive Part ... Comparison to English use

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Perf Passive Part ... Comparison to English use

Postby ArthurusNoviEboraci » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:06 am

Simple question about the perfect passive participle "datus, a, um" from "do, dare"...

Wheelock chapter 24 has the following exercise:

"Orator, signo a sacerdote dato, eo die revenit et nunc totus populus Latinus gaudet"...

I wonder if I could change that Ablative Absolute by a phrase where the perfect passive participle affects the "Orator"... My basis for speculating whether I could do that is the fact that in English we can say:

"He, having been given something...".

"Something, having been given to him"...

... and both are correct... I would understand if the passive perfect participle could not be so flexible in Latin, and could only be used adjective-style to modify the actual "thing having been given", not "he who has been given the thing"... But I'm trying to be creative here, don't blame me! hehe

In other words, I wonder if it would be grossly incorrect to say...

"Orator, a sacerdote signum datus, eo die..."

(obviously I don't need the ABL anymore since I did away with the ABL ABS, and "signum" - I presume - would then have to be ACC)...

That is, can I say in general "Vir aliquid datus"... "Femina aliquid data"...?

Let me know if I am too far off, and if the way the English "having been given" acts is natural only in English...
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Re: Perf Passive Part ... Comparison to English use

Postby Imber Ranae » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:40 am

No, you can't. The verb do, dare, as with most Latin ditransitive verbs, cannot have a dative subject in the passive voice.

A few verbs of presenting, granting, and the like, are sometimes used in a way approximately like the English dative-passive. E.g. dono,-are "to give as a present, grant, bestow" may be used exactly like do, dare, with direct object of the thing given and indirect object of the person receiving. Alternatively it can take direct object of the person receiving and ablative of the thing granted:

Multas villas mihi donavit. (= multas villas mihi dedit.) "He granted many villas to me."
Multae Villae mihi ab eo donatae sunt. (=multae villae mihi ab eo datae sunt.) "Many villas were granted to me by him."

Me multis villis donavit. "He presented me with many villas."
Multis villis ab eo donatus sum. "I was presented by him with many villas."

The verb dono,-are isn't really the correct word for your example, however. I would say that the ablative absolute construction is the most elegant solution here.
Ex mala malo
bono malo uesci
quam ex bona malo
malo malo malo.
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Re: Perf Passive Part ... Comparison to English use

Postby ArthurusNoviEboraci » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:19 pm

Thanks a lot, Imber Ranae... Great help!
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