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Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:06 am

Hi Everybody,

I was looking at the Study Groups and it semms the last started on 2007, maybe we can start a new group. I'm very interested in Greek Poetry, for examen. Also Latin can be, why don't we start the reading of a latin text?
Thanks.
nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:52 pm

I would be up for a Latin Text, though I admit my intentions are always more impressive than my actions. I am currently posting poems under the "poems anyone" topic and Rhodopeius has been posting selections from Vergil. You could post some poems there. Most of my selections have been from Horace.


If you are serious about a longer text, I would suggest picking one and chugging along through it. I think you are more likely to pick up participants as you travel through the text than to get them at the start.

Anyway, I am interested. Any suggestions on the Latin Text?
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Re: Study Group

Postby Kasper » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:30 pm

I'd be interested too, particularly in a longer piece of poetry, although i would not insist on this.

What do you perceive this study group will do? Will we all read the text and comment on grammar, or exchange notes, etc?
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Study Group

Postby Rhodopeius » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:46 pm

Sounds like a good idea. I'm on board. Most "chapters" of Roman prose works are rather short, so one per day would work well. If you want to do long poetry then you might want to stipulate a reasonable amount of lines, like about 100 per post from an epic.

I'm all for whatever you guys want to do, but my suggestions would be either Vergil, Ovid, or Lucan for epic and Livy, Cicero, or Sallust for long prose. They're on the beaten path but challenging enough.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:54 am

Prose or poetry sounds good, I can propose Vergil's Aeneid first book for poetry, or Lucan's Farsalia. If prose, maybe one of Cicero's speech or a book of the De Natura Deorum. The main purpose of the study group would be provide many points of view on the interpretation of the texts, many of us know about history, language, philosophy and all the comments could help for better reading and understanding latin texts an Roman's mind.

I don't know exactly how does this work (study groups in Textkit.com) but surely we can do something nice.

Thanks, propose texts and let's see what happen. :D
nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)
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Re: Study Group

Postby Rhodopeius » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:24 pm

Well, I suppose it depends if people would like to do a text that is widely available in student editions with helpful notes, or if they want the far more grueling challenge of taking on less widely studied text available online.

For Cicero, the Pro Caelio is a challenging but widely studied speech of huge cultural and historical importance. I have a student edition handy that could clear up any difficult points if need be. I also have the Pro Archia in student edition, but it is rather short and easy, because it switches early on from a forensic speech to more of a philosphical treatise. If you'd rather do a Ciceronian philosophy text, then I'm fine with De Natura Deorum.

Book I of the Aeneid is fine with me for poetry. I suggested Lucan because I'm personally less familiar with him but I can always study him on my own. One advantage of doing Ovid's Metamorphoses, though, is that it covers so much mythology, so completing even one book would be very rewarding in that respect.

So, my suggestions are:

Cicero: Pro Caelio, De Natura Deorum
Vergil: Aeneid Book I
Ovid: Metamorphoses Book I
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:54 pm

These are my choices in order of preference: De Natura Deorum, Ovid: Metamorphoses Book I, Vergil: Aeneid Book I.

The lazy person in me says to do the Vergil since I am pretty familiar with Book I. I would be going in blind with De Natura Deorum, but I have always wanted to read it, and I think I need to be forced to do it. Personally, I am not into the Cicero speeches. I have done enough to last a lifetime.

How is the pacing going to work? I can tell you from the Poems topic that even 25 lines a night is a lot to ask. Unless we are just that good. :D But, if we go with the 100 lines a night plan, two days without checking textkit would mean falling behind by 200 lines. A week missed would be a missed chapter (book I of Aeneid is ca 600 lines). And are we really going to go through the entire Aeneid in 3 months? But then, I guess it depends on what we are actually going to do. Are we going to translate every line?
Last edited by paulusnb on Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Rhodopeius » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:26 pm

Good point. But what exactly are we going to be doing? Just translating? Commenting as well? Analyzing the meter and the poetics? In that case, maybe twenty lines per day is a good pace for everyone to stick together.

By the way, I was studying in my Guide to Latin Meter and Verse Composition last night. I don't know how I forgot to bring it up before, but it's a real gem. The exercises are intense and effective. I'd definitely recommend it.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Kasper » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:19 pm

100 lines per day is just out of the question for me. Next to my every day activities (e.g. work/family/sports/etc) i just don't have the time do that much. Somehwere between 20-25 lines would suit me fine however, and i agree that we should at least each consider the meter and poetics, although it may not always require discussion. Comments would be good i think.

De deorum natura gets my vote. My second preference would be the Aeneid.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Not to complicate things, but what about Lucretius? Would anyone be up for this? I would really like to do On the Nature of Things. I must admit that I read De natura deorum as de natura rerum :oops: Silly me.
Last edited by paulusnb on Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Rhodopeius » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:05 pm

Yeah I'd be up for Lucretius as well. I've only read the first thirty or so lines of DRN but I like it. In fact, my vote goes for Lucretius, De Rerum Natura.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Kasper » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:23 pm

I'm not opposed to de rerum natura, but not a great fan either. it seems to mostly deal with outdated (or simply wrong) ideas about physics and chemistry, and as such seems to be of little interest. I am informed that the poetics are great, but i doubt that my skill in latin is such that i would see how great it really is.

Nevertheless, i will submit to the majority vote.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:43 am

Anyone know of a good text to the works we are talking about? Vergil has Pharr, but what about Lucretius and Cicero?

I have a version of Ovid (http://www.amazon.com/Ovids-Metamorphos ... 082&sr=8-4), but I am not crazy about it. The whole page is filled with small text and the notes are in the back. And no dictionary.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Rhodopeius » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:35 am

For Cicero I have two very good editions of the Pro Caelio and Pro Archia. They are both from Bolchazy-Carducci publishers, the former by Stephen Ciraolo and the latter by Stephen Cerutti.

I also really like the Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics editions that are out there. A bit pricey, especially if you have to order them, and definitely not for beginners, but very good ways to expose yourself to a particular genre or author. I have Plautus' Amphitruo and Books I-IV of Augustine's Confessiones.

I believe book IV of De Rerum Natura is available in the Cambridge series.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:49 am

My votes are:

Ovid: Metamorphoses
Cicero: De natura Deorum
Vergil: Aeneid

I guess 25 lines in poetry is OK, we can translate or not, the main purpose would be read without translating, trying to understant the latin text primo visu. Have you ever heard about the Accademia Vivarium Novum? :wink: I'm studyng here and we do everything in latin (eat, classes, everything) so I guess the target could be read without translating, this can be optional. I think we can learn too much about mythology with Ovid, and with Cicero we cand read too much about roman cosmogony.

BTW: www.vivariumnovum.it (The website for the Academia)

Let's do it! Vote and let's see. :D
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Re: Study Group

Postby Rhodopeius » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:20 pm

Quello mi sembra sopratutto migliore. Cosi possiamo coprire piu del testo senza farla troppo lunga. A vedere cosa dicono gli altri...
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:17 pm

Anche a me mi sembra che questo è il meglio metodo per capire tutto quello che il testo vi mostra. Sarebbe (ma forse non si può) meglio che anche i commentari fossero in latino, ma davvero non tutti possono farlo. Allora soltanto bisogna aspettare i voti degli altri. Sull'edizioni io posso trovare nella biblioteca di questa accademia molte che possono servire a tutti.

Speriamo i voti di tutti, ciao! :D
nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:23 pm

Simmer down regazzi. Non parlo Italiano. :D

Ivansalgadogarcia wrote:the main purpose would be read without translating, trying to understant the latin text primo visu.



Absent some pretty impressive Jedi mind melds, I am not really sure how an online forum group studies a text without some translation. This "main purpose" is admirable, and one for which every language learner strives, but it does not jive with a forum. I guess we could replace Orberg's Illustration approach with an intricate code via the Smilies :D .

Joking aside, everyone seems ok with Ovid. Right?
Last edited by paulusnb on Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:56 pm

Hehehehe, yeah, I know it sounds difficult, and it is; we are surely going to translate everything 8) .
On the text, I agree with Ovid, so, now we are four, do you think we could make a public announcement (i.e. try to create a TextKit study group as it was for learning greek and latin) or wait for at least one more participant :roll: ?

What do you think? :)
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:25 pm

This page http://www.textkit.com/groups/info.php claims that Annis is the one to contact about the study group.

Here is the info

What We Ask of You:

Required

* Study groups must work through Greek or Latin text or textbooks.
* Your study group must be absolutely free to join.
* You cannot advertise within your mailings.
* How you run your group is up to you, but you must provide written guidelines that include basic group information such as introduction, schedule, requirements and how to handle assignments.
* Outside study group subscription links must point to your individual Textkit group information page. example

Not Required (but appreciated)

* If your group uses a textbook, provide a link to Textkit's Support page.
* If your group has an outside web site, provide Textkit with a link



Getting Started

For further questions or to learn more about how to get stared with your own study group, please contact William Annis, Textkit's Study Group Coordinator.
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:30 pm

Also, this is a schedule from the Iliad group. A little less ambitious than our 25 lines a night.

Schedule: (provisional at the moment)

* May 1: Introductions.
* May 8: Lines 1-10. (GTSS lessons 1 & 2)
* May 15: Lines 11-21. (GTSS lessons 3 & 4)
* May 22: Lines 22-34. (GTSS lessons 5 & 6)
* May 29: Lines 35-48. (GTSS lessons 7 & 8)
* June 5: Lines 49-65. (GTSS lessons 9 & 10)
* June 12: Lines 66-83. (GTSS lessons 11 & 12)
* June 19: Lines 84-109. (GTSS lessons 13 & 14)
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:35 pm

One possibility could be that rather than saying 25 a night, we say 100-150 a week. I don't know about a nightly commitment.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Kasper » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:06 pm

OKay group, so we seem to be agreed that we will do Ovid's metamorphoses?

I agree with Paulusnb that a weekly hookup will probably be better, and setting 100-150 lines per week is fine with me.

Shall we set a starting date of 1 April?
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:58 pm

So, Book I begins April 1st. Book I is 775 lines. We should probably split it up by stories. Finishing up the ages should get us to line 150. stopping at 313 is right around where the flood ends and Deucalion and Pyrrha show up. 313-416 ends at the recreation of men. 416-568 is creation of animals and Daphne. Then we can split Io into 2: 568-667, and 668-775.


Six weeks total.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Rhodopeius » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:11 am

Sounds good to me.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Kasper » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:57 am

OKay, so the schedule is set.

now, what exactly are we going to be doing?
If we are all making translations, are we going to be sending these to each other for comment? This would add a lot a time, and may not be worthwhile. it would be more useful i think for each member to indicate to the others where he/she encountered difficulties, either in the text or meter.

Beyond this, perhaps a brief discussion, or some notes on the content?

whatelse?
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:05 am

We could assign a section to each person and they are responsible for leading the discussion, playing devil's advocate, etc. Perhaps the lead person starts with comment/notes on text and then pushes an extreme interpretation or two to elicit responses.

Anyone know any standards of Ovidian scholarship? The "teacher" of the week could possibly draw from some of it.


We could also make it a stipulation that the "teacher" post the lines he likes. We could also have them work through lines that are tricky.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Rhodopeius » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:09 am

This likes me. Perhaps it's best to have the lines randomly assigned by someone delegated for the task? That way no one can "cheat" by sticking to passages they may be familiar with.
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:37 am

Rhodopeius wrote:Perhaps it's best to have the lines randomly assigned by someone delegated for the task? That way no one can "cheat" by sticking to passages they may be familiar with.


You just volunteered. I have used Deucalion and Pyrrha in my classes, so skip me for that assignment.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:24 am

So the schedule is something like that, no?

April 1: Introduction to Ovid (textual tradition :?: , etc.)
April 8: 1-150
April 15: 151 - ?
April 22: ? - 313
April 29: 314 - 416
May 6: 417 - 568
May 13: 569 - 667
May 20: 668 - 775

Respect the way of doing this, I agree with the "teacher of the week" proposal, maybe the teacher could expose the full text of the week with notes and making any kind of paraphrase, not translation at all, then the others can expose their points of view, other interpretations of the passages, etc. Finally everybody could show their translation proposals.

I guess we could ask for help to Annis to make public this workgroup so more people can participate, what do you think? :)
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:54 pm

Ivansalgadogarcia wrote:April 1: Introduction to Ovid (textual tradition , etc.)
April 8: 1-150
April 15: 151 313
April 22: 314-416
April 29: 417-568
May 6: 569-667
May 13: 668-775


I am good with this except for the April 1st Intro. I do not see the need (Unless one of you happens to be an undercover Ovidian scholar). Any intro issues that we are capable of working through can/will be addressed in the working out of 1-150. I imagine that we will post our big questions in the initial postings.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:31 am

It's ok, we can ask for that things (or comment) in the first week. Everybody agree? What edition should we choice?
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Re: Study Group

Postby Rhodopeius » Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:34 pm

I was planning on using the online copy found at thelatinlibrary.com. But perhaps it is better to use as many different sources as possible, if they are available to any of us.

So, allotting the excerpts randomly:

* May 8: Lines 1-10. -Kasper
* May 15: Lines 11-21.-Rhodopeius
* May 22: Lines 22-34.-Paulusnb
* May 29: Lines 35-48.-Ivansalgaldogarcia
* June 5: Lines 49-65. -Kasper
* June 12: Lines 66-83.- Rhodopeius
* June 19: Lines 84-109. -Ivansalgaldogarcia

Does this sit well with everybody? Since there is an odd number of us and I know Paulus is very busy, I thought he'd be the one to get off with just one.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:10 pm

April 1: 1-150 - Kasper
April 8: 151-? - Rhodopeius
April 15: ?-313 - Paulusnb
April 22: 314-416 - Ivansalgadogarcia
April 29: 417-568 - kasper
May 6: 569-667 - Rhodopeius
May 13: 668 - 775 - Ivansalgadogarcia

It fits well for me, does everybody agree?
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:07 pm

Some issues with the schedules.

Rhodopeius wrote:* May 8: Lines 1-10. -Kasper
* May 15: Lines 11-21.-Rhodopeius
* May 22: Lines 22-34.-Paulusnb
* May 29: Lines 35-48.-Ivansalgaldogarcia
* June 5: Lines 49-65. -Kasper
* June 12: Lines 66-83.- Rhodopeius
* June 19: Lines 84-109. -Ivansalgaldogarcia


Scott,

This schedule seems off??????

Ivansalgadogarcia wrote:April 1: 1-150 - Kasper
April 8: 151-? - Rhodopeius
April 15: ?-313 - Paulusnb
April 22: 314-416 - Ivansalgadogarcia
April 29: 417-568 - kasper
May 6: 569-667 - Rhodopeius
May 13: 668 - 775 - Ivansalgadogarcia


151-? is supposed to be 151-313.

Anyway, can we change these dates to Saturdays? Wed. is right in the middle of the week. So, here we go.

April 4: 1-150 Kasper
April 11: 151 313 Rhodopeius
April 18: 314-416 Ivansalgaldogarcia (I am avoiding the section I have taught before.)
April 25: 417-568 paulusnb
May 2 : 569-667 Kasper
May 13: 668-775 Rhodopeius

If all goes well, we will just keep moving through Ovid, sticking with this rotation. I will email Annis tonight after hearing from everyone.

As far as texts go, I do not think we to need adhere to any one text. I was probably going to use Diogenes and the Ovid I already have. Scott, you mentioned Latin Library. Do you have Diogenes?
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Re: Study Group

Postby Rhodopeius » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:24 pm

Yeah, sorry about that...I don't know where those dates came from. Anyway, it all seems fine to me.

No, I don't have Diogenes. What is it?
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:09 pm

http://www.dur.ac.uk/p.j.heslin/Software/Diogenes/

Diogenes is a computer program loaded with Greek and Latin dictionaries from Perseus. One can load Latin texts from the PHI institute onto Diogenes ( Basically, anything written in Latin until 200AD). Diogenes can do word searches, phrase searches, etc. The text is also hyperlinked to the dictionaries. Basically, it is like having a faster/cleaner Perseus project on your computer. ...for free. You have to download the Diogenes program and then order the cd's from PHI.


To get the texts, e-mail Bridget Comparini at Packard Humanities Institute phi@packhum.org. You will have to fax a release to her.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. ~Swift
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Re: Study Group

Postby Kasper » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:02 am

Hi All,

this sounds good to me. i'll be using the text from the Latin Library - supplemented with online reference material (and i'll check if by chance the local library has something, but i doubt it). It may be interesting to come upon different readings in teh text. this may allow for interesting discussion
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“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Study Group

Postby paulusnb » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:16 am

I have e-mailed Annis. I am waiting for a response.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. ~Swift
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:57 am

HI Everybody,

I'll use PHI text and many editions we have here in Academy.

;)
nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)
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