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Lingua Latina Problem

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Lingua Latina Problem

Postby vastor » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:50 am

Salvete,

Capitulum secundum, pagina quattuordecim:
"In familia iulii sunt multi servi, pauci liberi"

In Julius' family there are many servants, (but/and) few children.

The meaning is obvious, but the grammar of "iulii" conflicts with my copy of Dooge's Latin for Beginners which states that nouns of the second declension in -ius and -ium end in -i in the genitive singular, not -ii. My latin dictionary describes the -ii ending in the genitive to be late latin, not classical. Am I interpreting this wrong?
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby Alatius » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:42 am

"Iulii" rather than "Iuli" is certainly a later form, created by analogy, but I think it is too narrow a view to call it "not classical". Without consulting any sources, I would say that "Iulii" is no less classical than, e.g., "equus" (instead of the the republican "equos", and the mediate form "ecus").
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby vastor » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:55 am

I thought "equos" was early latin when the masuline ending of second declension nouns were -os? And my understanding is that early, classicial, and late latin were quite different in morphology.
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby Alatius » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:23 pm

A form like "bonos" in the nominative would indeed be early Latin, but before v, the ending "-os" was retained longer. "Equos" would have been the normal form for, e.g. Cicero and Sallust. Cf. Bennett, The Latin Language, § 57. http://www.archive.org/details/latinlan ... 00bennuoft

The ending seen in "Iuli" is touched upon in § 126: "... the Genitive Singular of io-stems (e.g. imperium) is different from the Locative. For while throughout the Republican period the Genitive of io-stems end in -i, the Locative of such stems ends in -ii...", but nothing is there said explicitly on when forms such as "Iulii" became common. In any case, they are extremely frequent in all kinds of modern editions of classical authors.
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby paulusnb » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:36 pm

I do not know enough about late-latin vs early latin to comment on this aspect, but the double ii in the genitive is common in textbooks. In fact, I studied Latin for years before I came across a book that made the distinction between gen sg and nom pl in -ius nouns. It freaked me out at first.

In 49B of Allen and Greenough, it is claimed that the single -i in the genitive of -ius and -ium nouns lasted until the Augustan Age.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. ~Swift
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby adrianus » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:08 pm

Wheelock's Latin, too, uses "Iulii", just as paulusnb and Alatius say.
Wheelock's Latin, 6th edn., p.351, wrote:Qua ex causa destinavi eum mittere in praedia tua quae Foro Iulii possides... (Pliny, Epistulae 5.19, excerpts)

In Wheelock's Latin grammaticâ, "Iulii" figuram genitivam invenies, sicut paulusb alatiusque dicunt.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby vastor » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:05 pm

Salve Adrianus,

Suntne alii scriptores antiqui qui de genitivo singulare scripserunt.

gratiae tibi.

ps. Can genitivus be used substantively?
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby adrianus » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:48 pm

Salve vastor
Yes. Post-classically in the writings of the Latin Grammarians. I don't know of classical references that apply (talking specifically about the genitive singular). Maybe others will. And Quintilian gives "genitivus -i (m)" substantively as the noun as well as the adjective (Lewis & Short). So does Traupman, Conversational Latin.
Ità. De eo casu grammatici latini post aevum classicum scripserunt. Locos aptos apud classici aevi scriptores ignoro. Alii fortassè scient. Substantivè Quintilianus "genetivus" dat (ut adjectivum etiám), secundùm Lewis atque Short dictionarium. Et Traupman dat.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby vastor » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:37 pm

Gratiae. perperam scripsi: "genetivus" non "genitivus". mea culpa :)
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby adrianus » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:25 pm

Other way round, vastor: "genetivus" is better than "genitivus" in Latin but English has "i" for "e". Writing the latin above in English I made the mistake, and spelt it correctly in Latin in only one place. Tricks of the mind! :oops:

Appologies, vastor. When you say "perperam scripsi: "genetivus" non "genitivus" you are saying it should be "genetivus" and not "genitivus". Indeed.

Ê contrario, vastor. Litterae "genetivus" per "e" latinè praeferendae sunt. "Genitive" per "i" orthographia anglica est. Rectè per "e" latinè dictionem latinam unico in loco suprâ scripsi, malè per "i" latinam aliás. Dolos mentis!

Me excuses, vastor. Dicis quidem "genetivus" latinè rectam orthographiam esse. Vera dicis.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby vastor » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:41 pm

Agreed. It seems an easy mistake to make. I will consider both forms to be valid, but will use "iuli" in my own compositions for continuity.
Nostrae mentes unae sunt. Erratum facilem videt. Formas utras validas esse cogitabo, sed in meo descripto formam "iuli" sumam.
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby adrianus » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:16 pm

It is, indeed.
Facile erratum quidem esse videtur. [Tuâ veniâ, "facile" etiam cum genere neutro accusativo casu est. Passiva solùm vox "video" verbi anglicè "seems" sensum habet. Ideò, "videtur" dicitur.] "Citò faci erratum videtur", vel "citò factum" [ut velis]. ["facilè faci [sic*]", per "facilè" adverbium, malè sonat, genio meo.
Vidi quoquè ità, ut constructio: "Citò factum tale erratum [est], videtur", per haec: "erratum" nominativo casu, "est" constatum, et "videtur" separatum ab reliquo sententiae, sicut post commam.]

*Corrigendum. "fieri", non "faci"! Gratias, Didyme.
Last edited by adrianus on Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Lingua Latina Problem

Postby vastor » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:10 pm

adrianus wrote:"facile" etiam cum genere neutro accusativo casu est

Te intellego. Litterae "-is" masculinae et femininae, non neutrae sunt.

adrianus wrote:Passiva solùm vox "video" verbi anglicè "seems" sensum habet. Ideò, "videtur" dicitur.

Verum dicis. Verbum "seems" passivum est. Iterum temptabo:
Vero facile erratum esse videtur.

Subiectus dissimilis est.
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