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Vocative of MEUS: MI without ME

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Re: Vocative of MEUS: MI without ME

Postby Swth\r » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:54 am

spiphany wrote:
Swth\r wrote:No! Not at all! As I said, it is an interpretation of mine, in order to help our friend to get some more confidence.

Aren't we at risk of confusing the learner here rather than clarifying? I'm confused about the point you're trying to make here.

My sense is, blutoon's problem is not grasping the grammatical concepts; as for applying them, it's probably best to give one rule which is generally valid and stick with it, even if there may be exceptions in the Latin authors.


I also said...
Swth\r wrote:As it seems, any form can be used with anything... So there is no problem... We can use aither MI or MEUS, but I think using always MI is the easiest solution.

...and perhaps I should have said instead "but I think using always MI+VOCATIVE is the easiest solution"

I will say that again, as a simple advice to a new learner, because, as it seems, Adrianus and I have gone away from the first discussion.

So:

1) I said previously that he can use MI+VOCATIVE, of MEUS+NOMINATIVE, and be always right.
2) Adrianus said that also either MI+NOMINATIVE can be found, or MEUS+VOCATIVE.

=> We can use any combination without fear of making mistake.

Is this conclusion OK?
Dives qui sapiens est...
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Re: Vocative of MEUS: MI without ME

Postby adrianus » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:04 pm

And I enjoyed our trip very much, Swth\r. [By the way, I didn't say "MI+NOMINATIVE" can be found. In "Mi deus" the "deus" is irreg. vocative. I just gave that example because some have same you don't use "mi" with "deus", despite evidence to the contrary.]
Et nimis, Swth\r, iter noster mihi placuit. [Obiter non dixi "MI + NOMINATIVE"]
Last edited by adrianus on Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Vocative of MEUS: MI without ME

Postby Swth\r » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:11 pm

adrianus wrote:And I enjoyed our trip very much, Swth\r. [By the way, I didn't say "MI + NOMINATIVE" (In "Mi deus" the "deus" is irreg. vocative).]
Et nimis, Swth\r, iter noster mihi placuit. [Obiter non dixi "MI + NOMINATIVE"]


I owe you a translation, dear Adrianus...

Γηράσκω ἀεὶ διδασκόμενος => I grow old and every time I learn (sometihng). :D

Cheers!
Dives qui sapiens est...
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Re: Vocative of MEUS: MI without ME

Postby Swth\r » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:43 pm

Swth\r wrote:1) I said previously that he can use MI+VOCATIVE, of MEUS+NOMINATIVE, and be always right.
2) Adrianus said that also either MI+NOMINATIVE can be found, or MEUS+VOCATIVE.

=> We can use any combination without fear of making mistake.

Is this conclusion OK?


Again:

adrianus wrote:By the way, I didn't say "MI+NOMINATIVE" can be found. In "Mi deus" the "deus" is irreg. vocative. I just gave that example because some have same you don't use "mi" with "deus", despite evidence to the contrary.


Final conclusion (hopefully), as a "compass" to new learners:

MI+VOCATIVE (except DEUS=actually the VOCATIVE; as an exception; so MI DEUS is OK)
MEUS+VOCATIVE or NOMINATIVE

...
Dives qui sapiens est...
Swth\r
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Re: Vocative of MEUS: MI without ME

Postby adrianus » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:35 pm

Swth\r wrote:Final conclusion (hopefully)
:lol: benè festivum

Just wondering, Swth\r. Why is it my automatic Mac translation software can't begin to process the phrase Γηράσκω ἀεὶ διδασκόμενος? It does gives me this instead going in the opposite direction, Γίνομαι παλαιός και κάθε φορά που μαθαίνω,—which is more likely to be bad Greek.

Miror, Swth\r, cur programma vertendi in Mac computatro meo non sine claudere hanc clausulam adit: Γηράσκω ἀεὶ διδασκόμενος? Sed sensu adverso oggerit ità, quod Graecè verisimiliùs malè factum est: Γίνομαι παλαιός και κάθε φορά που μαθαίνω.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
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Re: Vocative of MEUS: MI without ME

Postby Swth\r » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:58 pm

adrianus wrote:
Swth\r wrote:Final conclusion (hopefully)
:lol: benè festivum

Just wondering, Swth\r. Why is it my automatic Mac translation software can't begin to process the phrase Γηράσκω ἀεὶ διδασκόμενος? It does gives me this instead going in the opposite direction, Γίνομαι παλαιός και κάθε φορά που μαθαίνω,—which is more likely to be bad Greek.

Miror, Swth\r, cur programma vertendi in Mac computatro meo non sine claudere hanc clausulam adit: Γηράσκω ἀεὶ διδασκόμενος? Sed sensu adverso oggerit ità, quod Graecè verisimiliùs malè factum est: Γίνομαι παλαιός και κάθε φορά που μαθαίνω.


I really know nothing abou Mac systems... :? Do you have a translator from ancient to modern Greek? The passage is attributed to Solon.

(1. Solon Nomographus, Poeta, Fragmenta Fragment 18, line 1

μέτρον, ὃ δὴ πάντων πείρατα μοῦνον ἔχει.
πάντηι δ' ἀθανάτων ἀφανὴς νόος ἀνθρώποισιν
γηράσκω δ' αἰεὶ πολλὰ διδασκόμενος, = I grow old and I always learn a lot of things
νῦν δὲ (φησί) σὺ μὲν Σολίοισι πολὺν χρόνον ἐνθάδ' ἀνάσσων

2. Plato Phil., Amatores [Sp.] Stephanus page 133, section c, line 6 "Τί δ' ἄλλο γε ἢ κατὰ τὸ Σόλωνος; Σόλων γάρ που εἶπε – γηράσκω δ' αἰεὶ πολλὰ διδασκόμενος· καὶ ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ οὕτως ἀεὶ χρῆναι ἕν γέ τι μανθάνειν τὸν μέλλοντα φιλοσοφήσειν, καὶ νεώτερον ὄντα καὶ πρεσβύτερον, ἵν' ὡς πλεῖστα ἐν τῷ βίῳ μάθῃ. ").

3. Plutarchus Biogr., Phil., Solon, 31.7.3 Ὁ δὲ Σόλων ἁψάμενος μεγάλης τῆς περὶ τὸν Ἀτλαντικὸν λόγον ἢ μῦθον πραγματείας, ὃν διήκουσε τῶν περὶ Σάιν λογίων προσήκοντα τοῖς Ἀθηναίοις, ἐξέκαμεν, οὐ δι' ἀσχολίας, ὡς Πλάτων (Tim. 21c) φησίν, ἀλλὰ μᾶλλον ὑπὸ γήρως, φοβηθεὶς τὸ μέγεθος τῆς γραφῆς. ἐπεὶ σχολῆς γε περιουσίαν αὐτοῦ μηνύουσιν αἱ τοιαῦται φωναί·

γηράσκω δ' αἰεὶ πολλὰ διδασκόμενος
Dives qui sapiens est...
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Re: Vocative of MEUS: MI without ME

Postby adrianus » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:32 pm

That's the answer, I suppose. One is ancient Greek and the software will only handle modern Greek.
Ibi est responsum, opinor: antiquitâ linguâ unum est, modernâ alterum, et illam programma non habet.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
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