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A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

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A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Orivej » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:20 am

I don't need a dictionary (though no problem if that would be a dictionary),
but I need a word list with the quantities of the vowels, preferably searchable.
Do you know any?
(The only one I have is the Oxford Latin Dictionary, but it tooks too long (up to 10 seconds) to look up a word.)
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby adrianus » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:05 pm

Hi Orivej and welcome
I haven't found a computer-searchable one anywhere sufficiently comprehensive, other than the renowned Perseus version of Lewis & Short.

Salve Orivej et gratus tuus adventus
Ullum usque satis comprehensivum quod computatro interrogari sit non inveni, separatim illum thesaurum de Lewis et Short apud hunc situm: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/re ... lang=Latin.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Orivej » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:58 pm

Gratias tibi ago. Ad ei intuebor.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby adrianus » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:10 pm

Check it out, Tell us what you think.
Eum intuere. Dic nobis quod de situ putas.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Lucus Eques » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:52 am

There's the word doc of the words used in LLPSI, on Focus Publishing's website.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby metrodorus » Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:47 pm

There are of course extensive audio word lists available on Latinum, with the correct vowel lengths. If you learn these vocabularies, you will not need to use a dictionary much - tens of thousands of words are presented, in semantic fields.
http://latinum.mypodcast.com

Some users find learning with these files works - they have certainly bumped up my working vocabulary significantly - the resources on Latinum are all made for my own use, but then publicly distributed, so others can make use of them.

Evan.
I run various Latin sites, including Schola and the Latinum YouTube channel - the main portal to these is http://latinum.org.uk
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby adrianus » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:01 pm

The Latinum website for learners by a novice (frequently advertised here by its author,—I'm a novice, too, by the way) is certainly full of words, but you will find it near impossible to locate any particular word sought. I'm not sure that the advice to learn everything that the site's author has pronounced in audio recordings so you won't need a dictionary is helpful. It is doubtful, also, that the site's author himself has memorized and absorbed the lessons and vocabularies published by others that he recites.

Plenus verborum quidem ille situs pro tirones â tirone hîc frequenter ab eius auctore promulgatus,—obiter, ego ipse tiro sum. Paenè autem impossibile illîc ullum verbum inquisitum invenire. Hoc consilium, ut omnes sonituum impressiones ab illo viro factas disces quià proindè te thesaurum non jam requires, fortiter dubito. Nec certum etiam est illum virum ipsum pensa vocabulaque aliorum quae recitat memoriâ tenere atque intellegere.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Amadeus » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:03 am

adrianus wrote:It is doubtful, also, that the site's author himself has memorized and absorbed the lessons and vocabularies published by others that he recites.


I'm sorry, Adriane, but I have to say that I find your last comment to be very unhelpful. Why is it necessary to put down the work of others, whose only interest is to help spread the practice of the Latin language?

adrianus wrote:but you will find it near impossible to locate any particular word sought.


Yeah, and for the simple reason that Latinum is not a dictionary. :roll:
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Lucus Eques » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:58 am

I'm going to have to agree with Amadeus, Adriane. I know that you and Evan have stirred up some heated debates about the Latin language before, but this almost seems ad hominem. I also, like Evan, frequently advertise my own work here, and I seek not to abuse the collective patience of you fine folks by doing so — but instead only to involve a community in a greater project to enjoy and cultivate Latinity together, a community that is one of the most spread out and diasporic that I can think of, being that we four alone are respectively from Mexico, Ireland, Britain, and the United States.

My frank opinion is that you, Adrian, and you, Evan, have gone to great lengths to give to the Latin community, and that you both should be praised for the powerful effort and positive influence. I count myself as deeply greatful to call you colleagues.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Lucus Eques » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:59 am

Here, by the way, is that link to the word doc of LLPSI's vocabulary:

http://www.pullins.com/dload/00498Booklet.doc
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Orivej » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:39 am

First of all, thank you all.

Lucus Eques wrote:Here, by the way, is that link to the word doc of LLPSI's vocabulary:
http://www.pullins.com/dload/00498Booklet.doc

Yes, I've found that. Might be usefull for learning (it contains lesser than 2000 words). The second words pdf is a bit more useful as a dictionary, though it is not searchable.

Lucus Eques wrote:community that is one of the most spread out and diasporic that I can think of

The same feeling.

I'd like to thank Evan for an informative comment. It, not answering the original question, suggests a really good alternative approach for the same final goal.
adrianus wrote:I'm not sure that the advice to learn everything that the site's author has pronounced in audio recordings so you won't need a dictionary is helpful.

At least the idea of memorizing by listening to the recocrds, either the Latinum or your own, had been helpful.
And I extremely appreciate Evan's work.

adrianus wrote:Check it out, Tell us what you think.

The Perseus project is very interesting, especially because it's (partly?) open source.
It's dictionary, even being an overkill for my purpose, is nearly what I'd like to have, but not online.
It will took some time to set up Perseus Hopper locally.
By the way, does it contain the Lewis & Short dictionary in its data files? If true, it is of a great use not only as a library.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby adrianus » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:44 am

Orivej wrote:By the way, does it contain the Lewis & Short dictionary in its data files? If true, it is of a great use not only as a library.

Certainly. In Perseus, when you have come up with an initial result of a search in Latin, click on the words "Lewis & Short", if they appear against a result (as they most often will).

Continet certé. Cum in Perseo inquisitionem latinè incipies, "Lewis & Short" in verbis quae adversùm eventum normaliter apparebunt deprimito.

Sure, Lucus. Thanks. We all have different "good sense" (let me not say bull****) thresholds, Lucus/Amadeus.

Ità, Luce. Gratias. Nos omnes, Luce Amadeeque, praestigias concoquamus usquè ad fines varios. Latinè minùs ambiguum est quàm quod anglicè dixi.

Amadeus wrote:I'm sorry, Adriane, but I have to say that I find your last comment to be very unhelpful. Why is it necessary to put down the work of others, whose only interest is to help spread the practice of the Latin language?

You ask a question, Amadeus. Well, I find it not pleasant for someone to preach how to achieve fluency in Latin who is far from fluent. Would you do that, Amadeus? That surely must attract criticism. And if someone's only interest were to be helpful, it is strange to have "honesty boxes" all over a site, implying that it is somehow dishonest not to be sending money to the site's owner! No problem if I want to sell you something, but to say that everything is free but it is "honest" to send money! Would you do that, Amadeus? And if someone professes to teach but says "Vir et consilii magni et virtutis non sum" while promoting unsavoury images here ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7873 ), that surely also invites criticism. And is this not an honest and open forum where I may have a critical opinion of others' work, or is it good manners to not criticize another here? And what have I said that is not strictly true: that it is unlikely that the person speaking the words knows them, while allowing others to believe otherwise? That is an honest review. That's what I put it in the honesty box. And that, together with other criticisms, is why I do not recommend the Latinum site here.

Quaestionem, Amadee, pone. Si aliqui docere profitear quomodò volubilitas latinitasque habeantur, qui eas res ipse non habeat, nonnè id incusam? Nec tu, Amadee? Si verò liberter ad aliorum commodum homo laboret, nonnè externum est signa ponere "honesty box" proclamantia, sicut inhonestus sit qui argentum domino sitûs non mittet. Similiterne facias, Amadee? Dum hîc imagines pornographicas promulgans, si aliqui se magister esse at verbis suis quoquè "Vir et consilii magni et virtutis non sum" dicet, nonne haec quidem animadvertionem invitent. Et nonnè apertè honestéque in hoc foro de operis et operibus aliorum opiniones atque querimonias dentur, an mos malus est sic facere? Et nonnè exactum: credibile quod hominem qui verba sonat non eos in corde habet, dum alios aliter credere permittet. Eccam criticam meam honestam. Eccum quod in cistam honestatis pono. Et ecce rationes meas, inter alias, per quas ego situm "Latinum" nomine hîc non commendo.

Post scriptum:
I just noticed that what I said above about the "honesty box" is completely wrong. Metrodorus does say he sells his materials, which he is entitled of course to do, absolutely.
De cistâ honestatis, erravi, admitto. In situ hoc sententiam modo animadverti: "YOU ARE KINDLY ASKED TO MAKE A SINGLE VOLUNTARY PAYMENT OF $2 FOR USING THE ENTIRE COURSE. LARGER DONATIONS ARE NOT EXPECTED, BUT ALSO NOT REFUSED!
PAYMENT IS VIA THE HONESTY SYSTEM, AND YOU CAN OF COURSE ACCESS THE ENTIRE COURSE WITHOUT MAKING THIS VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTION". Hac de re quod suprâ dixi falsum clarè est.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Lucus Eques » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:27 am

Well, Adrian, good sir, I still sense there to be a good deal more in the way of passionate displeasure with Evan the man below the surface that I certaily do not know of, than simply a constructive criticism of LATINUM his site — just my feeling, amice.

I'll admitt that I have gone to LATINUM very little, perhaps because I was not attracted to it particularly, perhaps due to my being beyond the novice stage, and perhaps due to other reasons you cite.

In any case, from your post, Adrian, I take the following consilium : Evan, if you would be so bold, perhaps you might benefit from the constructive criticism, or praise, of your peers here at Textkit. I recommend (if you will be so brave to invite it! for this takes globi :) ) that you start a thread here in the Learning Latin section where you open certain aspects of LATINUM, specifically or generally, to critique. That would give you the power to gather extremely useful information to better your massive project, while the discussion remains entirely on your terms (without it being blurted out by some of us in passing, as it may otherwise be). If you did this, I certainly would give LATINUM a try and a review — then, with our commentary clearly presented, you might as you see fit strengthen the best parts while adapting the ones in need of revision.

(Right now, in honesty, my critique is mainly with SCHOLA — I love the idea, and many of the features, but the Latin used is extremely strange and requires a great deal of refinement, which prevents me from using SCHOLA altogether — and the 'qv' spelling oddity along with the macrons must be abandoned since most browsers cannot read them without mutilating the font horrifically — this is the kind of info you might like to get if you start such a thread! ;) )

I hope to be reviewing LATINUM with these others here soon.
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Apologia pro Metrodoro

Postby Amadeus » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:10 am

Salve, adriane:

I think I missed the second part of your post yesterday, because then I did not see any words directed at me. But now that I see them, I shall respond:

adrianus wrote:You ask a question, Amadeus. Well, I find it not pleasant for someone to preach how to achieve fluency in Latin who is far from fluent. Would you do that, Amadeus?


Of course not. But has Evan ever claimed to have personally achieved fluency? I don't think I've ever seen that here or over at Latinum. From what I can gather, what he is claiming is that fluency can be achieved through the well-known method of immersion, and Latinum is an attempt in that direction, even though he personally is not yet fluent. One of the FAQ says: "The course will take you around three years to finish, maybe faster if you really work at it." But Evan, as far as I can recall from a chat I had with him, has been studying Latin for less than that. Again, the message that I'm getting from Latinum is "hey, I'm still a novice, but why don't we learn together, seeing as though the advanced Latinists don't seem to be doing much on-line to help make learning Latin easier?"

And if someone's only interest were to be helpful, it is strange to have "honesty boxes" all over a site, implying that it is somehow dishonest not to be sending money to the site's owner! No problem if I want to sell you something, but to say that everything is free but it is "honest" to send money! Would you do that, Amadeus?


Perhaps "honest" is not the best word, now that you mention it. But have you considered the possibility that maybe this whole project is costing him money (not to mention time and effort)? For my part, I wouldn't quarrel over a simple word, especially when, if you don't want to pay, you still get the course for free, and there's no one around to call you dishonest.

And if someone professes to teach but says "Vir et consilii magni et virtutis non sum" while promoting unsavoury images here ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7873 ), that surely also invites criticism.


I too criticized the posting of pornographic images. I don't get the fascination with learning erotic words in Latin. It is akin, imo, to when people want to know swear words in another language. However, far from condemning someone for trying to help others improve their Latin, an endeavor which, again, is absent in the higher spheres of Academia, I believe Evan is doing a great deal of good, but as is often the case with pioneers, there are mistakes in the beginning.

And is this not an honest and open forum where I may have a critical opinion of others' work, or is it good manners to not criticize another here?


Ever heard of constructive criticism? But maybe you have already spoken with Evan in private, constructively, and he has not listened to you. So you are right to be angry. Nevertheless, as I have not been privy to those conversations, I can only judge what I see in public. So I am right to be a little disturbed at your comments, which have taken a more obscure tone as of late.

You are obviously a very smart individual, Adriane, and I would like to see you put your gifts more into helping those of us who still struggle with our ancient languages, than into merely making the part of the opposition.

Vale, amice!

P.S.: Evan, I second Lucus' suggestion to opening up a suggestion box here or over at Latinum for ways to improve your website. After all, for $2 I think users have a right to voice their opinions. :wink:
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby metrodorus » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:46 am

Re: Latinum: No, I am not yet fluent - and never have claimed to be - though I will, at the current rate of progress, be able to make that claim in a couple of years - Latinum came into existence as a product of my frustration of not being able to find for Latin what I could find for other languages, such as French - an intensive immersive audio environment. Latinum is also an attempt at historical resurrection of Ollendorff's methodology, (Adler's textbook is a translation into Latin of an Ollendorff text) which I am also (albeit more slowly) working on for the French equivalent of Latinum. However, I already can read French fluently, so I do not have the same drive to work on the French section. When I first joined textkit, I had only been studying Latin for a couple of months - but even then, I attempted to write in the language.

I now attend a twice monthly Latin speaking group in London, and I am able to communicate quite effectively - better, in fact, than some of the teachers who attend. Indeed, I now run one of the sessions, as the current leader has moved away....my Latin, after two years,is already good enough to co-ordinate a meeting in Latin....obviously, I make errors when speaking, nbut that is to be expected with any learner of a language. To become fluent, one needs to activate one's use of the language, and overcome fears of making errors when speaking and writing. A communicative context is important - which I why I started Schola - which is growing fast. Schola has a high percentage of Academic neo-Latinists as members.

At these meetings, I am aware my vocabulary is already very highly developed, as I can almost every time supply a word when someone is stuck, as I have made it a point to memorise huge swathes of vocabulary. At my current rate of progress, I will have good spoken fluency within another two years, assuming I can keep up the pace - but my reading fluency is already very far ahead of my speaking ability - I can read many texts now with barely a need to consult a dictionary. The texts I am mostly interested in - Renaissance Scientific and Educational texts - are already mostly accessible to me without a dictionary. I do not have a great interest in Roman Literature, apart from Lucretius and Seneca. I also have an interest in Priapic and Erotic verse etc ( of which there is a substantial corpus in Latin literature ).

You need to understand - the Latinum materials are made for myself - I post them online, so others can use the resources I am developing for advancing my own Latinity - and the system is working beautifully. I do not claim Latinum is perfect - it isn't. If you listen to it, there is a marked change in my reading from the first episodes, though to the most recent ones. This is to be expected, and my growing confidence is mirrored by the growing confidence of the users, so this is an happy accident. The online posting also forces me to maintain a certain level of quality, and to keep up my rate of progress - many Latin teachers use Latinum, not only students. Even some University professors have written to me, saying they are using it to activate their passive knowledge of Latin. I listen to Latin for around 4 hours a day, sometimes far more. Some of what I listen to are my own recordings, and other things are recorded by others - Johan Winge has a good site with a selection of recordings - My goal is to become totally fluent - as fluent as I am in English. I only wish there were more recordings of simple Latin texts in Latin - it is necessary to listen to and read a huge amount of material. More and more of this is becoming available online - certainly, a big change has taken place online in Latin Audio provision since the original "Latin Audio' thread here on Textkit, which was the impetus for setting up Latinum. (The name came from a textbook by Robinson that I happened to be reading at that time)

I am not at my goal yet, but, I can say this, I am making rapid progress, and the thousands (yes, thousands) of people who are keeping on downloading the lessons as I upload them, are making progress as well. Users in China, Malaysia, Iceland, India, and the Middle East -almost everywhere where internet connections are available - are using Latinum in places where there are no Latin teachers, are using this course. If they find it as effective as I am finding it, the world will once again have a population of Latin speakers. Last month alone I had 200 000 audio files downloaded, so obviously, the course has value, or why would it be used so much? Since I came online in 2007, I am about to reach the 3 millionth audio file download. Obviously, there is a demand.

I had my first dream in Latin last week - that was an amazing experience, and I woke up with a big grin on my face. Dreaming in Latin is a milestone. I recognise this milestone from my other language study - I started to learn Hebrew and Aramaic in my 20's, and I still remember vividly the first time I had a dream in Talmudic Aramiac.

Users have, over the past two years, had a lot of input into the design and format of the lessons on Latinum - I read all the comments posted to the site, and have made many adjustments to it. The essential structure of Part A grammar, Part b Latin-English, Part C latin read Slowly and part C ii the same latin read more quickly, came about from user input.

Regarding the woord lists, I listen to the word lists that I recommended here about twice a week - it takes 3 hours to get through the entire selection I read out from Ripman's semantic field vocabulary. I don't always listen to the whole thing, but a selection. A huge amount of research has gone into finding appropriate resources for Latinum. Tracking down Ripman, purchasing the book (long out of print) (I have spend rather a lot on purchasing specialised textbooks, some antiquarian), resurrecting Adler's text from the grave - which is what Latinum does - is something I consider worthwhile. Arranging for Adler's text to be reprinted at Cost price, and therefore making it available once more, is one of the main things I think Latinum has achieved. The next step, resurrecting Comenius' programme, will, I believe, be even more important than my recording of Adler's textbook.

The only problem with Latinum, is the sheer volume of material, which is making the site hard to navigate - it needs a redesign - I have partly solved this by using the FAQ pages as a portal.

The honesty box thing comes from New Zealand, where I used to live. Asking for a tiny $2 donation for using the entire course, consisting of several hundred hours of audio, is not unreasonable. Farm produce outside the farm gate, and newspapers at kiosks, used to be sold this way..with an 'honesty box' ...and I don't want to charge, but I do want to cover my raw costs. I get around two to three $2 donations a week - which helps to offset my ISP costs, but that is about it. Every now and again I get a larger donation - the largest to date came from someone in Vietnam. Would you prefer I was to charge a subscription?

I have no time for nay sayers. Making a podcast is easy. If you think promoting Latin is important, then buy a microphone, and start making recordings. There are not enough online. There need to be more YouTube videos in latin, as well. Those of you with the ability and knowledge, I urge you to contribute - our community of Latinists will be richer for it.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby metrodorus » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:14 pm

Well, I find it not pleasant for someone to preach how to achieve fluency in Latin who is far from fluent.


Language learning methodogy is something I read a lot about - and being educated in it has little to do with the specifics of fluency in any one specific language. My experience of learning Modern Hebrew in an immersion environment, learning French more or less traditionally, and then Ancient Aramaic and Classical Hebrew in a more or less mediaeval tradition - both truly dead languages - have given me background and some ideas about how to proceed. I have also read researches into the writings of other Latin pedagogues in the Spoken Latin movement about how best to teach Latin in a 'living' setting, all these factors lead to Latinum coming into existence. I am always looking for advice and inspiration. The quality of my own Latin when I write and speak ad lib. is actually irrelevant, as on the podcast I use textbooks, and carefully mark up the quantities and the accents...and do not speak Latin ad lib. on Latinum. Mistakes do creep in, as there are hundreds of hours of recording, and on some days I am just plain tired. Then, I have to stop, as it is a tiring business, recording accurately. Users point these out, and they get corrected, eventually.

I reckon I have eliminated as many errors in Adler's textbook as I have introduced, ( there are a few typos, and mismatched English-Latin sentences and phrases here and there) so on balance, neutral.

Latin, we need to remember, while not quite yet a patient in a hospice, is close to it. Reginald Foster estimates that there are only 20 people alive as fluent as he is, and he says most of them are over 60. ( he said this a few years back - the number is now probably even smaller) Fewer and fewer academics have high standards in Latin. The number of professionals keeps dropping, the number of dedicated Latin departments keeps dropping, funding keeps getting reduced, academic centres are closed down or "merged". The Academic future is not too bright, and some academics such as Brian Bishop, despair.

When there is a fire, does one question too closely the quality of the water in the firefighter's bucket?

I aim high, indeed, to the best of my ability - which is the most any of us can aspire to - I am not a genius, merely persistent. Perfection is, anyway, impossible, in terms of pronunciation. The best we can do is read the sources, and then try to approximate what they are driving at.

Most Latininsts don't even bother with this oral authenticity stuff at all -deeming it a waste of time - those of us interested in aural and oral restored Classical are a distinct minority within the classics world. We need to keep a sense of perspective.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Orivej » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:23 pm

adrianus wrote:Ullum usque satis comprehensivum quod computatro interrogari sit non inveni, separatim illum thesaurum de Lewis et Short apud hunc situm: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform?lang=Latin.


As a dictionary I would better use this: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph.jsp?la=la

adrianus wrote:
Orivej wrote:By the way, does it contain the Lewis & Short dictionary in its data files? If true, it is of a great use not only as a library.

Certainly. In Perseus, when you have come up with an initial result of a search in Latin, click on the words "Lewis & Short", if they appear against a result (as they most often will).

Continet certé. Cum in Perseo inquisitionem latinè incipies, "Lewis & Short" in verbis quae adversùm eventum normaliter apparebunt deprimito.


No, I meant in downloadable data files (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/opensource).
It seems there are at least Elementary Lewis and Middle Liddel, but I have not yet downloaded them.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby adrianus » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:55 pm

Orivej wrote:No, I meant in downloadable data files (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/opensource).
It seems there are at least Elementary Lewis and Middle Liddel, but I have not yet downloaded them.

Sorry, Orivej. I misunderstood. Me paenitet, Orivej. Malè intellexi.

Amadeus wrote:I would like to see you put your gifts more into helping those of us who still struggle with our ancient languages, than into merely making the part of the opposition.

I do what I can in my way, Amadeus. I work slowly and patiently and carefully, and I still make lots of mistakes. Think how many more mistakes I would make if I worked quickly and impatiently and carelessly. What good is that to anyone?

Facio, Amadee, viâ meâ quod facere possum. Diligenter patienter sedulò laboro, et tamen frequenter erro. Quàm frequentiùs errem, si citò avidè negligenter laborem! Quid alicui opus sit itá?

Amadeus wrote:your comments, which have taken a more obscure tone as of late

The trouble with obscurity, Amadeus, is that true obscurity is invisible! On this matter, I've always made obscure remarks. What has changed recently is that my remarks have become less obscure,—and maybe that's why you only now see them.

Vera obscuritas, Amadee, invisibilis est, quod conturbat, nonné. Hac de re, semper modo tenebricoso dicabam. Verò me minùs obscurè nunc exprimere dico; id est quod nuper mutabatur,—quàmobrem fortassè tu subitò clariùs videt.

The internet is an open range where anyone may put forth their opinion or set out their stall. Selling knowledge or learning necessarily involves selling to those who lack the knowledge you declare to impart. Without standards and regulation, buyers (knowledge students and knowledge tourists) are a very vulnerable group. Personally, one of the biggest hurdles I had at the start of learning Latin was my inability to tell good latin from bad latin on the internet. I still struggle. One trusts in the integrity of one's teacher or models, for their real knowledge and for their admission of gaps they are aware of in that knowledge. He/she is not a good teacher (either morally or effectively) who can't admit to being wrong or isn't open to challenge.

Terra aperta est interrete, ubi omnis opinionem suam exprimat vel catastam sternat. Quàm miserum emptorem scientiae (vel discipulum vel viatorem ad arborem), quià illas res quae ignorat quaerit, at quomodò judicare, regulis vel mensuris publicis siné? Ego quidem in principio tantùm difficiliter in interreti latinitatem bonam discernere potui, et difficiliter adhúc. Nos magistris vel propositis exemplaribus fidem dare debemus, qui quantùm errores suas vel fines scientiae suae agnoscant, tantùm sit fidem nostram approbari et, atque morale ac utile sensu etiam, eos magistros bonos esse.

The trouble with peddling fluency to others in a language ("Learn Latin in 10 Minutes" or "Learn Latin in Two Years") or even to oneself ("I will be fluent in two years") is how opaque to assessment are the claims. The reason for the claimed personal successes that Metrodorus tells us about is not because he's listening to recordings but because he's the one making the recordings and putting the effort into reading Adler's book. There's a big market for buying these sorts of teach-yourself products but seldom do people stick with them and achieve fluency. They're faddish things,—just like the latest health foods. And they all have an escape clause but in tiny print: "will help weight loss only as part of a calorie-controlled diet", which translates to "will help fluency gain only as part of lots of other hard work". As resources, such things are useful, but how ridiculous does the claim for fluency achievement sound coming from someone with shaky Latin. It's bad enough listening to such claims from companies who hire bona fide content experts.

Quàm impossibilia approbandi, quàm incredibilia, illas enuntiationes, de re volubilitatem in linguâ secundâ habendi clamantes,—utrum aliis ("Latinum discite sub decem minutis" vel "Discite sub duobus annis") utrum mihi ipsi ("Volubilitatem in duos annos habebo"),—quod valdè vexat. Si Metrodorus sapientior et melior se credat, plùs per laborem quem ad faciendum impressionum sonituum impendit (librum Adler legens et sonus proludens) quàm aliter progreditur. Permulti illi instrumenta auxilii proprii in discendo linguarum secundarum quaerentes; pauculi volubiltatem attingentes. Ut ciba valetudinaria novissima, concinna saepè talia instrumenta, et semper hâc cum clausulâ excusante sed minutè scriptâ: "In tabendo adjuvabit solùm pars victûs qui modulos caloris rectificat", quod huius simile est, ut imaginor: "volubilitatem attingere potes si etiam magnam operam temporemque des ad multas alias res". Ut instrumenta, utilia talia impressiona, sed quàm derisorium virum volubilitatem polliceri qui ipse non eam habet. Jam satis malum est societates sic polliceri quae sciptores dictoresve peritos disertosque quidem conducunt.

Metrodorus wrote:When there is a fire, does one question too closely the quality of the water in the firefighter's bucket?

Save me from your bucket! The corpse is cold. We need fire, and that fire won't come by throwing old bones on the pyre.

Me hamâ tuâ liberari! Frigidum cadaver est. Calorem requirit, nec ignis gnascetur ossa veteria in bustum jacendo.
Last edited by adrianus on Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Amadeus » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:04 pm

(Suspirans) Disputatio ista nihil prodest. Qui bene intelligere velit, intelligat! :|
Last edited by Amadeus on Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Lucus Eques » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:24 pm

metrodorus wrote:When there is a fire, does one question too closely the quality of the water in the firefighter's bucket?


Hahae! well spoken. I like that quote.

Adrian, you say we need fire, and I appreciate that sentiment as well. How then would you set alight Latinity, if not by Evan's method?

The trouble with peddling fluency to others in a language ("Learn Latin in 10 Minutes" or "Learn Latin in Two Years") or even to oneself ("I will be fluent in two years") is how opaque to assessment are the claims. The reason for the claimed personal successes that Metrodorus tells us about is not because he's listening to recordings but because he's the one making the recordings and putting the effort into reading Adler's book. There's a big market for buying these sorts of teach-yourself products but seldom do people stick with them and achieve fluency. They're faddish things,—just like the latest health foods. And they all have an escape clause but in tiny print: "will help weight loss only as part of a calory-controlled diet", which translates to "will help fluency gain only as part of lots of other hard work". As resources, such things are useful, but how ridiculous does the claim for fluency achievement sound coming from someone with shaky Latin. It's bad enough listening to such claims from companies who hire bona fide content experts.


This statement also has an escape clause: "but seldom do people stick with them and achieve fluency." And if you do stick with it? Fluency is gained only through the effortless exercise of four faculties:

reading
writing
listening
speaking

As there are few people to listen to and even fewer with whom to speak, reading is the easiest faculty in Latin and usually the strongest of a Latinist, while writing requires precise effort, followed by listening and then speaking at the bottom. LATINUM's concept is to strengthen one of the weakest faculties of Latin learners, which is greatly to be commended, and absolutely essential.

I agree with you, that in my own recordings I learn a great deal as Evan surely does, since I am forced through my desire to express myself about modern events and other ideas where Classical Latin vocabulary is generally lacking — and thus my Latin expands, improves, and broadens through the research I must do for coined terms (I have numerous books for vocabula recentiora, and they can often conflict! much like British vs. American vocabulary, i.e. lorry/truck, boot/trunk, etc., leaving me to choose what in my judgement seems to communicate the idea both most accurately and with the greatest of ease to listeners). But listening is still essential. Will you deny it?
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby Orivej » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:33 pm

Reading your discussion (especially the reference to Reginald Foster), I got a bit confused.
Is there (or maybe was in the near past) really not a single child (i.e. lesser than 5 years) on our planet who speaks latin somehow?
I thought the opposite because there are children with native esperanto knowledge.
If true, who was the last such child?
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby adrianus » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:52 am

Orivej wrote:Reading your discussion (especially the reference to Reginald Foster), I got a bit confused.
Is there (or maybe was in the near past) really not a single child (i.e. lesser than 5 years) on our planet who speaks latin somehow?
I thought the opposite because there are children with native esperanto knowledge.
If true, who was the last such a child?

Certain well-off families (very few) in the seventeenth century raised children in Latin as a first language. That may have been the last time. Others might say.
Quaedam paucae familiae beatae saeculi septimi decimi liberos eduxerunt, latinam habentes ut linguam primam. Nisi fallor, post hoc sic non evenit. Alii me corrigent.

Lucus wrote:This statement also has an escape clause: "but seldom do people stick with them and achieve fluency." And if you do stick with it? Fluency is gained only through the effortless exercise of four faculties:

reading
writing
listening
speaking

I mean that clause to be understood in here: "will help fluency gain only as part of lots of other hard work".
Quae talia hîc inter alias res intelleguntur: "volubilitatem attingere potes si etiam magnam operam temporemque des ad multas alias res".

Lucus wrote:How then would you set alight Latinity, if not by Evan's method?

The first time I went onto the Latinum site, I was very hopeful. But I was soon disillusioned. I found the structure dreadful, the recordings dreadful and the approach of the author unreliable and unattractive. And the author grated on me,—making large statements and offering advice that merely repeated the wisdom of others, but not always accurately and expressed much better elsewhere. It offered the chance to listen to a beginner (who nowhere then admitted to being so, with his ability obscured behind the words of others) carefully but in an exaggerated manner reading an excellent school book. Anything good was a borrow or a link from, or to, elsewhere. It seemed to me rather vain and posed, with on overdraft on others' abilities. I can honestly say that I didn't sense that the author offered me anything authentic. And yet If others say it's good, that's fine. There is no accounting for taste. Maybe I'm very much in the minority on this, but when people on this site call Metrodorus an "expert", it just confirms to me that the world really is crazy. I'm happy to be in a minority, in case it's infectious. Luckily fot me, my enthusiasm was not extinguished by the buckets Metrodorus was casting from his site and I remain enthusiastic. Ironically, one of my original motivations to study an ancient language such as Latin was because I believed that contemporary existence is crazy. But since existence has never been anything other than crazy, the study of Latin can't be seen as a protest but as a source of stoic comfort: there has never been any escape, so forget complaining. Dear Lucus, nothing can "alight Latinity" except the personal and accidental motivations of individuals, and the example of the meaningful communication of good latin (by which I mean authentic Latin rather than grammatically correct Latin), from sincere voices past and present. Those are the things that I found missing from the Latinum site (in Adler yes, but not in the site's author). Maybe that site satisfies dreams other that those, but those fantasies don't interest me.

Cum primo in situm "Latinum" nomine veni, plenus spei eram. Mox autem frustratus sum,—et consitutione, et receptionibus sonituum, et genere auctoris, quod genus inventum inconstabileque putavi. Et is auctor me invictavit,—qui sententias magnas aggressit et consilia aliorum repetivit, etsi illa consilia meliùs accuratiùsque alibi ostensa. Occasionem praebuit tironem (nusquam tunc sic esse admittentem sed ponè verba aliorum statum suum celantem) ex libro capitale sedulò at cum hyperbole recitantem audiendi. Omnia bona de sito alio veniebant. Mihi visum est situm ob vanitate factum et fictum esse, et aliorum ad opera nimìs obligatum. Verùm dico me nullum ab auctore authentici deditus esse, ut sensi. At si alii aliter habeant, licet; gustus arbitrio subjectus est. Fortassè in paucioribus benè sim, sed cum dicunt quidam in hôc foro Metrodorum peritum esse, dico me contentum sepositum esse ne insania contrahatur. Me fortunatum, autem! Alacritas linguae latinae mea hamis Metrodori deflammata non est sed advixit manetque. Ironicè quidem, hac sententia, ut mundus insanus est, ad linguae latinae discendum me movit. Quod nunquam autem aliter mundus fuit (quod etiam in latinae discendo inveniat), minùs in reclamatione contrâ stultitiam dierum nostrorum sed plùs in consolationem stoicam virtus huius linguae inveniatur: impossibile evadere, futile est ergô queri. Nullum, Luce care, latinitatem excitabit nisi arbitrium studiumque proprium et exempla communicandi significanter rectéque authenticéve data, ex vocibus temporum praesentis praeteritique. Quae ab sito "Latinum" nomine desunt, ut opinor (in voce Alder quidem quae in paginâ restat sed non in voce Metrodori). Ille situs alia forsitan somnia implet, sed non mihi sunt illae fantasiae.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby metrodorus » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:09 am

Adriane

I am afraid the person whom you are attacking exists only within the confines of your cranium. Attack him all you wish. Gesundeheit, as they say.

Be in good health.

Evan.
I run various Latin sites, including Schola and the Latinum YouTube channel - the main portal to these is http://latinum.org.uk
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Re: A latin word list with the quantities of the vowels?

Postby metrodorus » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:38 am

There is a family I know of in Vietnam, who are raising their daughter to speak Latin. She is now 2. I know of other families where the parents speak to their children in Latin. However, these parents themselves are not as fluent as Reggie Foster is. Very few people have cultivated Latin as a living tongue - until recently only a tiny number, such as Stroh, and Foster did so. This is changing, but the spoken latin movement remians a tiny fringe movement on the edge of Latinity. Many people within the Latin world violently attack it - I am a member of the Latinteach list, and every few months or so really heated arguments flare up between the ones who want to speak Latin in their classes, and those who think the language should be taught as grammatical code.

Learning any language is not difficult, unless you learn it the wrong way. Latin, for the most part is taught not as a language but as a code to decipher texts, so of course it is incredibly hard to learn, if approached in that way.

I don't know what Adriane's goals are in learning Latin. Without knowing a person's goals, it is hard to have a cogent discussion about anything. My goal is clear - I want to become orally fluent. Why? for the simple joy and pleasure of it. And I want to have others to talk to and to communicate with - as many as possible. I want to see Latin resurface as a language of communication - why, because it would be fun to see this happen. I am one with Comenius, I think learning a language should be fun. Comenius, who wrote a textbook full of such delightful gems as Faba facit flatus, and Cloaca est ad cacandum, and Quis friget dum ova frigit and such classics......... I have always liked the 'feel' of Latin, and I have always wanted to speak it. Until I found Adler's book, I had no way of doing this, no route 'in'that would work for me.......as his is the first textbook to codify what so many Renaissance writers such as Ascham etc had described in outline, I was thrilled to find it, I had been looking for just such a textbook, when I stumbled on it only hours after google books first uploaded it. So, I am creating the wherewithal for others to learn how to speak the language, by activating Adler's text as a spoken series of lessons, by having created Schola - and these sites are popular and are growing fast, which tells me I have done something right. Maybe not everything. But something. I do not claim to be an expert. I ask for advice from elsewhere, and accept it willingly. I am an amateur. Most of those interested in spoken Latin seem to be from outside the academic world, or the official world of Latin education. I have my fans and supporters, as well as my detractors. Such is life. I know my early recordings on latinum are not very good - but when I have consulted others whose opinions I trust, I have been told, no, finish the project, do not go back and re-record, it is more important to finish...users can perfect their Latin as they go along...and actually it is the case that the extreme slowness and artificiality of the early recordings is actually a boon for the beginner, although they sound tortuous to a more advanced student, and indeed, sound odd to me, now. But , they are useful. They teach quantity, and the quality of the vowels etc is within the bounds of respectability. They resemble to ultra slow English recordings my Spanish flatmate used to listen to when he was learning English. Excruciating for a native speaker of English to listen to, but necessary for a beginner.

Anyway, I provided a mix of other readers on latinum, so that users can listen to a variety of voices and types of rendering of the restored classical pronunciation, so I was not too worried about that aspect of things.

I hope Latinum will inspire others who are better than I, do put out other resources of a higher standard. At the moment, nothing much is available.
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