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Demonstratives

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Demonstratives

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:28 am

The book i am using does not make sense

It says about Demonstratives: "There are no special words in latin
for the pronouns of the third person"

If this is true than this means that THEY DO NOT EXIST. It seems
to be ruling out there existance. It is like saying there is no
Nominative in the reflexive third person


However, then it says you can use IS (as well as HIC)

Do they exist or dont they? They are differentiating something very
vague here

Thanks.
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Postby adrianus » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:19 am

What's the title of the book, blutoowithcarrotandnail?
Titulus libri, canorcareulecarotâclavoque, quis est?

blutoowithcarrotandnail wrote:They are differentiating something very vague here
Maybe. I believe the book may mean that there are no third-person pronouns that can be used independently of the context, or that can be used in every context.
Fortassè. Vult dicere omnis tertiae personae pronomen in contextu pendere. Nulla quae omnes circumstantias condecet.
Last edited by adrianus on Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Twpsyn » Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:27 pm

Perhaps they mean that there is no word that corresponds directly to English 'he, she, it'. The closest thing is, of course, using is, ea, id, as 'he, she it', but you can also use it as a demonstrative more or less equivalent to ille or hic. And sometimes those words themselves are used with little enough force that you could translate them as 'he, she, it', instead of 'this' or 'that'. So there is no simple, one-to-one correspondence. Latin demonstratives are generally rather vague compared to how we use their English equivalents.
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Postby calvinist » Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:09 pm

'is, ea, id' is not exactly the same as English he, she, it but it does have a lot of overlap in meaning and usage. 'hic' can function like the 3rd person pronoun when it stands by itself.
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:48 pm

adrianus wrote:
I believe the book may mean that there are no third-person pronouns that can be used independently of the context, or that can be used in every context.


Can you use IS in the following way:

Question: Who did it?
Answer: IS (simply by itself)

How about:

Question: Who is going for a walk?
Answer: IS AMBULAT (with a verb)

Thanks.
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Postby adrianus » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:06 pm

I don't think Latin demonstratives are vague compared to English equivalents, just subtle or even more exact. For example, take your questions, blutoonwithcarrotandnail.
Meâ sententiâ, ô canorcaerulecarotâclavoque, demonstrativa latinè non minùs exacta sunt quàm anglicè. Subtiles sensus habent, et subtiliores quidem. Exempli gratiâ, tuas quaestiones vide:

Can you use IS in the following way:

Question: Who did it?
Answer: IS (simply by itself)

How about:

Question: Who is going for a walk?
Answer: IS AMBULAT (with a verb)

You don't really, IF you expect someone to point with their finger. You use "ille" or even "hic" if near to the person, because they are more specific, and the question invites a specific response. "Is" isn't specific enough in the context of your specific questions, I think.
Non licet si signum digiti exspectas, quià tales quaestiones peculiaria responsa invitant, ut "ille" vel "hic" (si proximus est quem significas). Quaestionibus tuis, "is" pronomen non est satìs speciale eis* casibus, ut puto.

*eis casibus [eis from is ea id] because it refers to quaestionibus tuis, referred to shortly before but there is no need of "former" or "latter" or any other tightening with "illis" or "his". Please advise, if this is not correct. It's what I believe, anyway.
Last edited by adrianus on Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:13 am

How would you use IS in the genative and the accusative correctly?

Genative:

There is a cat on the corner and it is his

Why do you have to have IS? Why couldnt you just put 'cat' in
the genative?

Accusative:

It is for his reasons that this is happening

Could you use 'IS' here or it wouldnt be right?

Why would you use 'IS' in the first place if you could just conjugate
the verb? Is it like personal pronouns like EGO and TU
that are for emphasis?


Thanks.
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Postby adrianus » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:35 am

Jacobum video. Eum [Jacobum] novi. Feles in angulo [aedis] est et eius [Jacobi] est. Is [Jacobus] eam [felem] mulcet.
Maria Jacobum videt. Feles in angulo est et huius [Jacobi] est. Is [Jacobus] illam felem mulcet. [in case you think he strokes Maria]
Maria Jacobum videt. Feles in angulo est et illius [Mariae] est. Illa [Maria] eam [felem] mulcet.

Why couldnt you just put 'cat' in the genative?

The cat has or possesses nothing.
Nullum feles habet. Ea nullum habet.
Last edited by adrianus on Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby adrianus » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:03 am

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:Why would you use 'IS' in the first place if you could just conjugate
the verb? Is it like personal pronouns like EGO and TU
that are for emphasis?
Yes, and to clarify.
Rectè dicis,—ut vis addatur et sensus clarior faciatur.

In the first sentence above you really could leave out "is", but it operates like "qui" (as Allen & Greenough say §297) if you leave it in (so that's another use):

Jacobum video. Eum [Jacobum] novi. Feles in angulo est et eius [Jacobi] est. Is [Jacobus] eam [felem] mulcet.

Jacobum video. Eum [Jacobum] novi. Feles in angulo est et eius [Jacobi] est. Eam [felem] mulcet [Jacobus].
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:28 pm

adrianus wrote:[i]Jacobum video. Eum [Jacobum] novi. Feles in angulo [aedis] est et eius [Jacobi] est. Is [Jacobus] eam [felem] mulcet.\

Maria Jacobum videt. Feles in angulo est et huius [Jacobi] est. Is [Jacobus] illam felem mulcet. [in case you think he strokes Maria]


Could you give me a translation on the first two sentences into english?

Jacob sees? It is new (baby)? The cat in the corner is Jacobs? He he is doing something to his -

Maria sees Jacob. The cat in the corner is Jacobs. The cat she - does
something to it (strokes?)'


Thanks.
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Postby adrianus » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:58 pm

I see James. I know him [in English = present tense & not "I knew him"]. There is a cat in the corner and it is his. He strokes it.

Mary sees James. A cat is in the corner and it is his. He strokes it/the cat.

What's the title of your book, blutoowithcarrotandnail?
Titulus libri tui, canorcareulecarotâclavoque, quis est?
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:02 pm

The title of the book is Our Latin Heritage Book 1 3rd Edition copyright 1962
by Hines
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:04 pm

adrianus wrote:I see James. I know him [in English = present tense & not "I knew him"]. There is a cat in the corner and it is his. He strokes it.



The above is Genative.



adrianus wrote:Mary sees James. A cat is in the corner and it is his. He strokes it/the cat.

Titulus libri tui, canorcareulecarotâclavoque, quis est?


The above is Accusative.


Could you do me a favor and give me a Dative and Ablative example
using similar sentences in Latin and English.

Thanks.
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