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Postby Brent2009 » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:47 pm

Alright guys, I am taking AP Latin Literature this year, and I feel very intimidated by the texts. I am having infinitive amount of problems with this first peice of work. I'm having to worst time making any sense of it.. can you help me?

I'm not asking for a translation.. but maybe help me parse it up a little, how to look at it. etc.

Ac ne quis a nobis hoc ita dici forte miretur, quod alia quaedam in hoc facultas sit ingeni neque haec dicendi ratio aut disciplina, ne nos quidem huic uni studio penitus umquam dediti fuimus. Etenim omnes artes quae ad humanitatem pertinent habent quoddam commune vinculum et quasi cognatione quadam inter se continentur.

This is the excerpt we are working with, I appreciate your help.
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Postby Brent2009 » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:50 pm

Also, I should mention I KNOW the latin. haha, I worked alot with Latin Prose, this will be my 4th year of Latin,and I know Latin poetry is EXTREMELY different, but I don't know why I'm having so much trouble, I hope I can get some help.
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Postby MiguelM » Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:27 am

Here the working is to have whoever has questions post their attempts first before being helped, otherwise it would be the posters doing the other person's work. Post your attempt and difficulties and I and certainly others as well will be willing to help.
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Postby Brent2009 » Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:09 pm

I appreciate your concern, but I must say I take a little offense to it.

I am NOT asking anyone to do my "homework". I am in a self teach class, and I have been given nothing to help me tackle this, I am intimidated by it and I dont even know where to start with it. I just want HELP breaking it down, how I should go about it. That is, the ONLY reason, I have posted this. I can't give you my "effort" when I dont have a clue where to start it. THAT is why I posted.

I WANT to do the translating, I WANT to work with the passage, but I NEED some guidance on how TO DO that. So please, if you could be so kind, UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION.

You don't even have to USE my Excerpt, help me parse POETRY in general, is that really so hard to ask? for a little help?

So Miguel, I appreciate you "filling me in", but I am well aware of the rules, thanks, however I think you missed my point..
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Postby Didymus » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:00 pm

If you think that this is poetry, you need more help than I can give you. The same likely holds true if you don't even know where to begin.

However, in the interest of trying to make some progress here: start at the beginning, read left to right. Start with ac ... miretur. What can you make of this part of the sentence? Here are a couple of hints: hoc refers to what Cicero has said above in section 1 of the speech. quis = aliquis ("after si, nisi, num, and ne, every ali drops away"). What mood is miretur? What is the form of dici?

Is this helpful to you?
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Postby thesaurus » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:04 am

First, this is prose, not poetry. Second, if you feel you're completely lost, you can always start by asking some specific questions (as Didymus is doing) as they occur to you. Don't try to take the whole passage in one leap.

I've edited the font of words that are semantically connected (are combined in sense). I've changed up the fonts just to help you keep the groups separate (e.g., a new group begins every font change). Can you deduce the meaning of each group?

Ac ne quis a nobis hoc ita dici forte miretur, quod alia quaedam in hoc facultas sit ingeni neque haec dicendi ratio aut disciplina, ne nos quidem huic uni studio penitus umquam dediti fuimus. Etenim omnes artes quae ad humanitatem pertinent habent quoddam commune vinculum et quasi cognatione quadam inter se continentur.
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Postby Brent2009 » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:37 am

AP Latin FOCUSES on Poetry

this uses Rhetor and other poetic devices, and i get confused. THAT is why I am asking. Period.
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Postby Brent2009 » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:43 am

I appreciate you helping me out thesaurus, I hope you understand my thinking behind everything [heh, its NOT poetry, but have poetic devices within it, which im not used to when reading prose.] but, as I was saying, Thank you for your kindness, and not being a jerk. =]
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Postby Twpsyn » Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:24 am

It isn't poetic devices in particular that make reading Cicero, or, indeed, any connected 'real' Latin prose difficult: it's just that your (I presume) three years of traditional-style high school Latin do not expose you to enough 'real' Latin for you to master the idiom, viz. the flow of the language and the way it constructs ideas. I know just the feeling of incomprehension you are experiencing, and I'm afraid the only cure is reading Latin (lots of Latin) ... which may not be much comfort to you, if you are preparing for the AP, but hey.

Also, please don't blow up. You must admit that a vague plea for help, such as you began this thread with, is not easy to respond to: we can't read your mind.
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Postby Brent2009 » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:06 am

without blowing up, I will say
I'm not sure I agree, but enough is enough. Thanks anyway.
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Postby Interaxus » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:18 pm

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Postby thesaurus » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:47 pm

Interaxus, I just want to let you know that this is one of the best presented and finest wrought autodidactic approaches to a Latin passage I've seen here. Brent, and others in his place, would do well to heed this advice.
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Postby Interaxus » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:07 am

Thesaurus:

Thanks. I just wish I had your skills! :(

Cheers,
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Postby Didymus » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:22 am

A few very brief notes:

Interaxus wrote:Ac ne QUIS a nobis (and lest anyone from (among) us)
hoc (this (oration))
ita (in this fashion)
dici (is being presented/said (by me))
forte MIRETUR, (by chance MAY WONDER)


Take a nobis (= a me) with dici. hoc refers to what Cicero has just said (sec. 1), not the speech as a whole.

ne NOS quidem (nor WE OURSELVES indeed)


ne xyz quidem = "not even xyz"

QUAE ad humanitatem PERTINENT (that (may) relate to humanity (civilized society)


No need for "may."

Such trivialities aside, you're clearly able to digest this little morsel.

As a point of minor interest, do you understand the use of the subjunctive in the clause quod alia quaedam in hoc facultas sit ingeni? (This is perhaps the most grammatically subtle part of the passage.)
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Postby Brent2009 » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:26 pm

*sigh* I thank you for your help now, after the "reassuring" comments that I couldn't be helped. heh, I did my best with what I could, this is really pointless to me now, but thank you for your time, I appreciate all your efforts.
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Postby Interaxus » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:49 am

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Postby Didymus » Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:45 am

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Postby Interaxus » Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:35 am

Got it! :D

Thanks a million.

Cheers,
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