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Postby petitor » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:09 pm

salvete omnes.

I've been self-studying for several years now and, while I've grasped much of the basics, I don't have anyone to verify the more advanced exercises. So I'm looking for any comments and/or corrections to some English to Latin translations I've been working on.

This first one is from Bradley's Arnold continuous passages, ex. 25. I've placed my Latin translation first, followed by the original English text.

valete vobisque plurimas.

*

Tiberii Gracchi adversarii, fautoribus eius iamiam armatis in Capitolio conspectis, ad curiam cum festinassent, dixerunt eum optare ut populus sibi coronam donaret. quo nuntiato cum senatores inter se multum consternati essent, statim Nasica consulem postulavit ut rem publicam defenderet tyranno castigando. consul autem leniter respondit se non primum aliquem violare fore; seque cum neminem ante iuste iudicatum damnari passurum, tum facinori Gracchi inlato obstiturum; sed nondum causam sibi intercedendam accidisse. at Nasica surgens exclamavit: "cum consul salutem rei publicae negligat, quisque qui leges defendat me sequatur." inde ipse et amici eorumque assectatores clavis baculisque armati in Capitolium maturantes impetum fecerunt in Tiberium, qui, multis certantibus e Gracchi factione caesis, ipse ab uno tribunorum illius magistratus collega vulnus mortiferum accepit.

*

The opponents of Tiberius Gracchus, observing that his supporters on the Capitol were already armed, hastened to the senate house and declared the he wished the people to bestow a crown upon him. This news created great consternation amongst the senators and Nasica at once called upon the consul to defend the constitution and punish the tyrant. The consul mildly replied that he would not be the first to do any violence; and just as he would not suffer any free man to be put to death before sentence had been lawfully passed upon him, so he would resist any unlawful action on the part of Gracchus; but nothing had happened as yet which called for his intervention. But Nasica, rising from his seat, cried out : "Since the consul has no regard for the safety of the commonwealth, let every one who wll defend the law follow me." Then he and his friends and their attendants armed themselves with clubs and staves, rushed to the Capitol, and made towards Tiberius. In the struggle which ensued, many of the party of Gracchus were killed and he himself received a fatal blow from the hand of one of the tribunes who was his colleague in that office.
Last edited by petitor on Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Interaxus » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:13 pm

This is neither correction nor comment but at least you can compare your version with a professional translation in this Key provided by Patruus:

http://cid-7c51d883593d5954.skydrive.li ... yPart2.pdf

Cheers,
Int
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Postby petitor » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:49 am

Many thanks for the link; it has proven very helpful indeed, especially where the translations are similar.

However, I now have a more specific question regarding the translation of the following:

and just as he would not suffer any free man to be put to death before sentence had been lawfully passed upon him, so he would resist any unlawful action on the part of Gracchus

Given my (updated) interpretation:

seque cum non libertum ante iuste iudicatum damnari passurum, tum facinori Gracchi inlato obstiturum

Foregoing a literal one, is this translation grammatically accurate and (more importantly) understandable enough to faithfully express the original idea?
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Postby petitor » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:41 am

petitor omnibus iterum dicit plurimam.

Assuming that the absence of both comments and corrections indicates approval, I'll procede with yet another translation, this one from "Advanced Level Latin Prose", by A.H Nash-Williams. Though shorter than the previous, it remained a challenge, especially since the exercise instructed that "events should be written down in the order in which they occurred". To help illustrate this principle and it's effect on the the Latin translation, I've placed the original English version first this time. As before, I'm looking for any commentary, especially with respect to the arrangement and phrasing.

vobis gratias ac salutem.

*

The next morning, when King Henry saw that the French army was much larger than his own, he sent messengers and promised to give up the town of Harfluer and all the prisoners he had had taken there, if the French would allow his army to pass safely to Calais. Henry realised that his men, after continuous marching for many days, were worn out with weariness and hunger, and had scarcely sufficient strength to resist the enemy. However, the French leaders were so confident that they would conquer that they gave the envoys a haughty reply, and demanded that Henry should promise never to lay claim to the kingdom of France. This he said he would not do, and after encouraging his men in a brief speech, he led them out to battle.

(N.B. "had had" is not a typo.)

*

Postridie mane, Henricus, itinere multos dies continenter facto, intellegens suos lassitudine fameque confectos vix satis virium hostibus resistendo habere, cum exercitum Francogallicum multo maiorem esse quam suum animadverteret, legatos misit et, si hostes exercitum tute Caletum abire paterentur, se oppidum Caricotinum atque omnes captivos quos illuc adferendos curaverat traditurum promisit. principes autem Francogallici tam se victuros confidebant ut, responso superbo dato, ipsum numquam regnum Francogallorum adfectaturum Henrico pollicendum esse rogarent. quod cum se facturum negasset, ipse suos breve oratione hortatus in proelium eduxit.
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Postby Didymus » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:58 pm

I have not looked at your earlier Bradley's Arnold effort, although you are certainly to be commended for undertaking it. I've somewhat hastily prepared a version of the Nash exercise without reference to yours:

Postridie mane Henricus cum exercitum Gallicum percepisset multo esse maiorem suo legatos misit qui nuntiarent se uelle et oppidum Harfleuium relinquere et captiuos quos illuc transtulisset tradere, si Galli suis permitterent ut tuto transirent ad Calesium. Rex enim intellexit suos, quippe qui multos per dies iter iam fecissent nullo fere interuallo respirandi dato, lassitudine inopiaque cibi esse confectos atque iis esse uix satis uirium ad resistendum hostibus. duces autem Gallorum se ipsos uicturos adeo confidebant ut nuntiis superbe contemptis postularent ut Henricus promitteret se regnum Gallicum numquam appetiturum. quibus autem condicionibus noluit ille concedere; itaque contione haud longa apud suos habita eos in proelium eduxit.

You have a few mistakes; I enumerate briefly most salient below:

continenter: I don't think continenter with the ablative absolute can stand here, unless you can produce a parallel.

itinere ... facto: This is why the army is worn out, so I would re-write so as to make that clear.

intellegens: "when he saw" here both refers to past time and must have a causal flavoring; ergo the present participle will not stand.

resistendo: I won't say that what you've written is impossible, but uires + ad + gerund/gerundive is both much commoner and clearer.

animaduerteret: the pluperfect subjunctive is wanted.

legatos misit et ... promisit: I would connect these two ideas more closely -- the messengers were the ones who conveyed the promise.

tute: tuto strongly to be preferred.

Caricotinum: ?

quos ... curaverat: the subjunctive is wanted (subordinate clause in indirect discourse).

tam se uicturos confidebant: use adeo and place the adverb next to the verb.

rogarent: they did more than just ask; you need a stronger verb. Then re-do the construction with polliceor entirely; if you are wed to the gerund, then you'll need fore ut uel sim., which will still be very awkward.

breue: breui

Nash's instructions on sequence of events seem nonsensical to me. Most of my other quibbles would be merely stylistic; you can of course see how I would have done it above. Corrections and improvements to my version or my comments are most welcome.

Your composition work is better than most students could do with formal instruction; that you've managed such success on your own redounds greatly to your credit.
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Postby adrianus » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:47 pm

Didymus wrote:redounds

It's a very long time since I last heard this English word. It's a lovely one. Thanks, Didymus.
Iam multi anni sunt quòd hoc verbum anglicè postremùm audivi. Quàm bellum est! Gratias, Didyme, tibi ago. :D
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Postby petitor » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:12 am

Much belated gratitude for your reply, Didymus, and not only for its advice, but especially for the gracious compliment: it has been (and still is) a difficult task to self-study Latin, and that the effort has been noted is both rewarding and greatly appreciated.

Unfortunately, I'm quite taken away with work at the moment, and so must postpone a more substantial response for another day.

tibi ex imo gratias.
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