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De methodo "ASSIMIL" inter alia

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De methodo "ASSIMIL" inter alia

Postby Kyneto Valesio » Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:06 pm

This is intended primarily for Interaxus. He and I had been having a discussion in the "Adler" thread but since we had drifted far from that I thought it best to start a new thread.

By the way, can I convert cassette recordings to digital format?


Yes you can do it and you should do it - as soon as possible. If you can't figure it out write to me privately as I believe I could in good conscience send you the mp3s since you already have the cassettes.

As an autodidact, I think parallel translations are unbeatable: they let us intuit how the target language works and build up a vocab without agonies of total bafflement.


Yes, but of course we will not have learned latin if we rely on parallel translations forever. However, for didactic purposes, they are the best - Lingua Latina notwithstanding. Actually I think LL is just another way of providing a parallel translation. The material is added gradually and the student mentally supplies the equivalent in his native tongue. Listening repeatedly to something that we understand perfectly in the target language as well as our native language is the optimum method of developing speaking ability. From speaking ability flows the ability to write.

As for writing/speaking Latin, I’m still stuck in my shell of silent shame – ridiculously enough.


Cast all shame aside. Step forth boldly.

How did you start out?


I started by writing on the grex a number of years ago. Most of the writers on the Grex are expert. Nevertheless, I was warmly received even with my limping and error filled prose. I am still from far expert but I find the more I write the easier it becomes. I suggest that you join the Grex but I think you are unclear what the Grex is. The Grex has a web page where it links to various materials. But main action of the Grex is on the Listserve where the letters of the participants are distributed. When I say to join the grex that is what I mean. If you can't find out how to SUBSCRIBE let me know and I will dig up the information.

By producing sentences out of the blue in your bath tub?


Yes, in the tub and in the car and laying in bed.

Like you I am a great fan of the Oxford Latin Course. Verum est, ut videtur, quod homines magno ingenio aeque cogitant.

I applaud your 7-month plan of study.


When I am on a jag, as now, I tend to overextend myself. If I need to let something go in order to keep up with the Assimil I will do it. In other words Assimil is my focus for now. When I have mastered the principal parts of every verb, learned the gender and genitive of every noun, and have throughly digested every grammatical structure in the Assimil method I will do the same thing for Lingua Latina and Oxford. It should take about a year or year and half of very concentrated study. At that point I would hope I could negotiate almost any classical text with only occasional recourse to the dictionary. If not then I would think that basic methods need to incorporate much more vocabulary. We will see.

Your mention of Grex Latine Loquentium reminds me that I must check it out more often.


See my comments and subscribe to the Grex's listserve. You will be amazed. There are persons who write profusely with perfectly polished prose.

Now I must do a bit of Attic Greek.


I attempted a bit of Biblical Greek last Spring. I used the Rev. John Dobson's method which has a lot of similarities to the Assimil course. In four months I was able to pretty well translate at will from the Gospel of John (but not the letters of Paul). One day, God willing, I will return to Greek and to Sanskrit as well. But, friend, what a strange hobby we have! I mean ancient languages! So fascinating yet potentially alienating! What I miss most is persons in the flesh with whom I could share some poems, some verses, some idle conversation. Nonne sit jucundum recumbere cum amico vero sub tegmine vitis lagona meri in promptu. Ibi possimus agitare summas cogitationes philosophicas atque recitare aliquos versos nostri Horatii cari!

Vale amice!
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Postby Lucus Eques » Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:48 pm

I wish the Grex had a forum, instead of that ghastly Listserv. It's extremely difficult to follow threads of conversation, and the whole format completely turned me off to attempting to maintain those contacts. I had to let my subscription expire without renewal. The Colloquia Latina have been far more useful, and interesting.
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:30 am

I wish the Grex had a forum, instead of that ghastly Listserv.



I couldn't agree with you more. Textkit's interface is far superior. The subject of changing the format has been brought up but met with resistence. Like you I was totally baffled about how to follow the threads. I did solve this problem after a fashion however. First, I elected to receive only the digest - that is one message per day. Then I figured out how to read the messages on line. There is a search function. I typically search for all new posts in the past two days. It gives me the result in a list that is fairly intelligible. You can also search by sender and time. Sample query: Let me see everything written by X in the last 7 days. Before I figured this out I, like you, felt pretty overwhelmed. Despite the old fashioned interface, it is worth it.
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Postby Interaxus » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:32 am

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Postby thesaurus » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:11 am

Kyneto, for us newcomers, could you supply some choice quotes from the last discussion regarding the method you speak of and the 7-month plan of study?
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:16 pm

Salve Thesaure!

The previous discussion between Interaxus and myself is to be found in the Adler Thread towards the end. I am not a bit of a latin jag and had proposed for myself an ambitious program of study/listening using the Adler/Assimil method. I characterize this method is being "viva vox" or natural. The method supplies progressively complex sentences along with just enough grammar to comprehend the them. It is the job of the student to repeat the sentences ad nauseum: Etiam et etiam iterare oportet (Assimil, page 42). Nor is this a new method; a number of scholastic dialogs emphasize the technique. With the advent of technologies that mechanically or electrically reproduce the human voice, the method has been rendered even more powerful.

In lectione quinquagesima prima methodi assimilis haec Auerelii Augustini verba legimus quibus exponit ille qua ratione usus sit ad patriam linguam discendam:

Sed ego ipse, cum apellabant rem aliquam et cum secundum eam vocem corpus a aliquid movebant videbam et tenebam hoc (abl.) ab eis vocari rem illam quod sonabant, cum eam vellent ostendere, Ita, verba in variis senentiis locis suis posita et CREBRO AUDITA quaram rerum signa essent PAULATIM collegabam.


Unfortunately as a adults we cannot learn by a pure natural method. We do need somethings explained. We do have to memorize some forms. Nevertheless the work can be minimized by the incorporation of "natural method" techniques (lots of listening and repeating). It's what the State Department does, its what the military does to train staff. When applied to latin the method is called Latinitas viva. It is what everyone on this forum should be practicing. Because if you don't hold latin to be living you consider it dead.

I could go on and on and on. But I will limit myself to this. Teachers of Latin who cannot read, write and speak with some fluidity are frauds. It is they who are responsible for the lie that latin is dead. To a lesser extent students also do themselves a disservice when they restrict themselves to translating, construing, struggling.

Incidentallly, Gaius Liccope, a leading latinist and proponent of living latin, cut his teeth on the very same course, Le Latin Sans Peine from Assimil, that Interaxus and I now plowing through. Here is an article about him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Licoppe

Finally, regarding the Grex, I courage everyone who is intermediate or higher to IMMEDIATELY join the Grex with all its limitations. Here is the link.

http://www.man.torun.pl/archives/grex.html

Look for "Subnotationem dato, deleto, mutato "

After you have established the subscription, return to the same page and set your account to "no mail". This way you can read everything online without cluttering your box. Having done all of this, then open the most recent month. You will get a list of everything that has been posted over the period. To see what is most recent use the search function (the button with the magnifying glass). I typically look for the last two days. This is system is less than optimal but it does work and is very much worth doing. So everybody should join today. Do it now. Everybody should send a letter of introduction and everbody can say I, Cynetus Ille Valesius, sent them.
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:46 pm

Below you will find some breaking news, a letter from the Grex about Interaxus' teacher, Avitus. Avitus is a great believer in the Assimil method. Like Eduardus I have also not listened yet because I got this while at work.

Eduardus Gregi sal.

Modo certior factus sum ab Ioanne Londineno (alio in foro)de novo coepto
Aviti nostri (Hispani illius Londinensis) qui imagines moventes in rete
fecit de methodo linguam Latinam docendi viva voce:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDg70dIbDUw

Ipse rem non vidi quia mihi non est connectionem multiplicem ad rete
quae fascia lata vocatur.

valeatis
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Postby Interaxus » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:51 pm

I just tried to get myself enrolled at GREX and failed all three times. They must be using the deponent subjunctive form of user-unfriendliness. I think I'll stick with Textkit, Assimil, Ephemeris, The LatinStudy List, Bestiara Latina, Shakespeare Sonnet-a-Day, etc, etc. aaaaa :x aarrrhh!!

Cheers,
Int
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Postby thesaurus » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:29 am

Where does one find a copy of Assimil Latin?
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:14 pm

Where does one find a copy of Assimil Latin?


Assimil, a French outfit specializing in language courses, has just discontinued the course we are talking about, namely Le Latin Sans Peine. My guess is that you can find used copies through amazon or abebooks.com

http://www.amazon.com/Latin-Sans-Peine- ... 2700500210

Make sure you get the tapes and that you know at least a little french. The tapes are all in latin but the book is half in french, half in latin. My french is pretty weak but I have been getting by. It really is a great course. The book itself is SUPER STURDY - it won't fall apart like the Teach Yourself books do even after one use.

Thanks, Interaxus, for the Bestarium site; it is new to me. I am going to find out what gives with the Grex, I mean the subscription glitch that you mention.
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Postby Interaxus » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:28 am

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Postby Misopogon » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:24 am

The Assimil course is also available in Italian translation: "Il latino senza sforzo".
The old edition of "Le Latin sans peine" seems still available from the Italian Assimil website:
[url]http://www.assimil.it/risultati_av.php?lingua=31&lingua_part=%&titolo=%&isbn=%&collana=%&lingua=31&livello=%&ean=&media=%&avanzata=si&offerta=%[/url]
I guess that many bokstore have still some copies in stock (especially outside France).

In the website of Circulus Latininus Panormitanus I have found other courses aimed to spoken Latin, especially C. Egger, Latine discere iuvat. Anybody has read it? I'd like to have an opinion
http://www.cirlapa.org/libri.htm

Regards
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:37 pm

In the website of Circulus Latininus Panormitanus I have found other courses aimed to spoken Latin, especially C. Egger, Latine discere iuvat. Anybody has read it? I'd like to have an opinion
http://www.cirlapa.org/libri.htm


I have been aware of this for a while and maybe would have bought the program but its impossible (for me) to figure out how to order it. Egger has a big reputation among the Latinists who practice viva voce. He died a couple of years ago. The pronunciation is church latin, I suppose.

Another guy on this board, I think he is a monk but I can't remember his moniker, was involved in a thread with one of those people who follow the old latin rite (they aren't actually in the church but think they are). Anyway, this guy, whose name I forgot, gave a link where you could learn viva vox through some church oriented program. Does anybody remember this? The problem though with these old programs is they are on tape. Maybe somebody could make a business by going to the copywrite holders and offering to distribute the courses/programs by MP3 and PDF.

Interaxus, to get the most out of the course with Avitus, I think you really need to have mp3s. It is just too labor intenstive to deal with tapes.

I still haven't had time to listen to the utube piece with avitus. Will do so soon. I am curious how much I can pick out.

For those thinking about Assimil, for my part it is highly recommended. Anyone who bought it now could get a jump on the course that Avitus will be offering free next year over the internet. One of the things that Avitus adds to the package is that he gives recordings of all the exercises that are not covered in the tapes - all together it is something like 90 supplemental recordings, each bieng about 1 or 2 mintues. Unlike the course proper (the assimil tapes), avitus uses the restored classical pronunciation throughout. I took the course two years ago but dropped out. Fortunately I kept in contact with one of the students who finished the course who provided me with a complete package of the Avitus recordings. Alltogether the mp3s from the original course, the supplemental recordings and the Assimil text itself are priceless to me who wishes to learn to speak latin. And I will say it again: The assimil book is sturdiest book I have ever had!!! And believe me I am tough on books.
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Postby Misopogon » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:07 pm

I have been aware of this for a while and maybe would have bought the program but its impossible (for me) to figure out how to order it. Egger has a big reputation among the Latinists who practice viva voce. He died a couple of years ago. The pronunciation is church latin, I suppose.


You can order it from Paxbook
http://www.paxbook.com/algorithmiS/serv ... merus=1298
or from the publisher
http://www.libreriaeditricevaticana.com/
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Postby Amadeus » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:07 pm

Salve, Kynete:

I do not wish to hijack this thread, but you said something that struck me as odd. Would you mind clarifying it?

Kyneto Valesio wrote:was involved in a thread with one of those people who follow the old latin rite (they aren't actually in the church but think they are).


Why wouldn't "those" people be actually in the church given that the Pope himself has favoured the old latin rite?
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:23 pm

Why wouldn't "those" people be actually in the church given that the Pope himself has favoured the old latin rite?


I am referring to the followers of the excommunicated french Archbishop. One of the followers came here recently, said he was learning latin and would be spending the rest of his life in some remote monastery. That group does not belong to the catholic church although in their minds they do belong. Here is a Wiki article about their movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Lefebvre

I am quite sure that the earlier thread I mentioned was started by a follower of this group. The thread lasted for a while and there was a contribution from one of our members who I believe is a REAL catholic monk which pointed to the learning materials I referred to. If you can find that thread you will find some comment to effect: "we don't agree on everything but I respect the piety" or some such. At the time it seemed like everyone thought this gentleman was entering a Roman Catholic order. I knew otherwise but in the interest of not being controversial kept my mouth shut.
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Postby Amadeus » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:32 pm

Ok, Kynete, thanks for the clarification. :wink: I just didn't want people to get the wrong impression about the old latin rite.
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:30 pm

If you're after spoken Latin try the 'Course On the Living Latin Language' from the Familia Sancti Hieronymi - http://www.hieronymus.us/ . Click on 'Venalia' on the sidebar and then on Editiones Latine or Anglice, as you prefer. The pronunciation used is one of the ecclesiastical forms and should be more or less what is used in Golgotha Monastery, but it isn't exactly Roman.


I went a dug up the above quote from a thread called "religion" which was started by little flower. This is the discussion I was referring to. My interest here was in recovering the link to the "spoken latin" course to see if any one knows anything of it?

In the course of digging up the link I could not help but notice that in the course of discussions that the real catholic monk/priest had gently tried to dissuade little flower from his heretical intentions. I wonder what became of that ? The curious want to know. I for one am praying that the real catholic's offers were favorably received.
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:32 pm

If you're after spoken Latin try the 'Course On the Living Latin Language' from the Familia Sancti Hieronymi - http://www.hieronymus.us/ . Click on 'Venalia' on the sidebar and then on Editiones Latine or Anglice, as you prefer. The pronunciation used is one of the ecclesiastical forms and should be more or less what is used in Golgotha Monastery, but it isn't exactly Roman.


I went a dug up the above quote from a thread called "religion" which was started by little flower. This is the discussion I was referring to. My interest here was in recovering the link to the "spoken latin" course to see if any one knows anything of it?

In the course of digging up the link I could not help but notice that in the course of discussions that the real catholic monk/priest had gently tried to dissuade little flower from his heretical intentions. I wonder what became of that ? The curious want to know. I for one am praying that the real catholic's offers were favorably received.
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Postby Interaxus » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:07 am

Re-hijacking the thread ... :P

You can get an idea of how the Assimil course works from this pirate copy of the first 22 lessons on a Russian website. Skip the first page in Russian. The guy has even provided his own audio recordings for the first 6 chapters (the original recordings are naturally a tad more professional and employ male and female speakers)..

http://linguaeterna.com/ru/enchir/assim ... iones.html

At the very least, you can practise the Russian alphabet in lessons 1-3. There, each Latin sentence is transliterated into Russian letters before being translated into Russian (the instructional language is otherwise French or Italian in the published course-books).

PS. If anyone understands the cartoon joke in the chapter 8 (sorry, lectio octava), please let me know. :?

Cheers,
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Re: De methodo "ASSIMIL" inter alia

Postby quendidil » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:53 am

I've obtained the Assimil latin sans peine course and the audio recordings seem to feature a rather heavy French accent - their "R"s are particularly prominent.
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Re: De methodo "ASSIMIL" inter alia

Postby metrodorus » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:09 pm

I receive the GREX emails, and occasionally write on the Grex. However, I think the Grex is dying. It has only 200 odd subscribers, despite having been online for many years. Compare this with Schola which has picked up over 750 members, with more each day, in less than 12 months. The political slant of some of the writing on the Grex has dismayed me, and I know others here on textkit have voiced similar views in the past, when discussing the Grex.

If you want to practice your Latin, the locutorium on Schola is a good place - you have real-time interaction. You can correct your grammar as you go, and talk about your latin, in latin, in real time. This is a very powerful learning tool. Schola is also a good place to meet people to initiate private Latin correspondence.
Most nights now there are people in the chatroom. The membership on schola keeps jumping - over 740 now, and a large number of these are professional academic Latinists, and there are a good mix of students, both tyros and advanced. You can get an idea of what people's Latin is like, from their microautobiographia. Many members of the Grex are also members of Schola, so there is cross fertilisation between the groups. Schola provides the bulletin-board facility that the Grex lacks.

I think it is a great pity the GREX uses a listserve, as it creates a generation gap, as younger internet users do not even know what one is. The sooner they move to a more modern format, the better. Otherwise, they risk extinction or severe shrinkage, in the long term.

Metrodorus
I run various Latin sites, including Schola and the Latinum YouTube channel - the main portal to these is http://latinum.org.uk
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