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pronunciation used at LATINUM PODCAST

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Postby adrianus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:48 am

In response to you, Evan, the beauty for me of the Ecclesiastical-Italian and Nuntii Latini models is because they represent (I believe) fine old and established traditions that are more European than national, and they are alive! I have no difficulty in agreeing it's better to recommend the restored classical model because there are special present and future advantages in having a unified standard (quite apart from it's importance for classical studies). However, signing-up to a manifesto that condemned the alternative models as "in error" I couldn't do because that condemnation, to me, seems more greviously in error (ideologically and historically). That was what my beef was about. It's a matter of wording but words aren't trivial.

Evano responsum Adriani. (Just for practice. Happy for corrections.)
Admiror, Evane, modos latine loquendi ut Ecclesiasticum-Italum et quem "Nuntii Latini" voco, quod hi consuetudines vetustas atque probabiles (ut credo) demonstrant, coque sunt consuetudines vivae! Sunt etiam modi proprie europaei, non solum gentiles. Commoditatibus systematis unici praesentibus futurisque numeratis, modus classicus nove correctus satius esse libenter consentio (et disciplinis classicis non minor usus est quem habet, certe). Condicionem autem subscribere quae "errata" modorum aliorum condemnet -- id non possum! Sic facere gravius erratum futurum esse puto, --historice et ideologice dicens (ut mihi videtur). Ecce natura complorationis meae. Res dilectorum verborum est, sed verba pollentissima sunt.
Last edited by adrianus on Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Amadeus » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:14 pm

This is why I love the Textkit fora: so full of academic discussions! :D

So, in the end, who won? :lol:
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby adrianus » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:18 pm

I don't know who won, or if the last word has been spoken. But the heart of discussion is to open the mind. So the victors will be those who have learned something, you could say. For my part, in the future I will treat the ambition to use classical elision in everyday contemporary speech with more respect.

Nescio quis vicisset, necne verbum ultimum edaretur. Verò, anima disputationis animum aperire est. Dicamus igitur victores esse quiqui non nullum discerent. Meâ parte, curam aliorum elisioni classicâ in sermone hodierno futurò verebor.*
(*deligendo huius verbi facetias non volo :wink: )
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:23 am

Nescio quis vicisset, necne verbum ultimum edaretur.


Nescio; ut mihi videtur, non uteris proba consecutione temporum . Nonne sit melius scribere quid huic similis?

Nescio nec quis vicerit nec si judicium ultimum datum sit.

Etiam nunc nescio quis vicerit aut quid ultimum verbum sit.

Exemplorum causa alias sententias do

me rogat quid acciderit

quid acciderit scire volo
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Postby adrianus » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:34 am

Salve, Kyneto.
Rogavit Amadeus "Who won?" Rogavit Amadeus quis vicisset, nonne?
Apud Allen & Greenough (para 330,331) "Nescio ubi sim, I know not where I am." "...the verb, which in indirect questions is regularly in the Subjunctive"
Apud Gavin Betts (Teach Yourself Latin, 1986, p.171) "I do not know what he is doing can be nescio quid faciat (indirect question) or nescio id quod facit (adjectival clause, lit. that which...)".

The way I translated was "I don't know who won [pluperfect subjunctive because referring to past time], and nor do I know if the last word has been uttered [imperfect subjunctive because referring to the present time --a sentence with 'has' in it]". Is that wrong?
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:21 am

Somebody correct me if I err.

I still think the phrase "Nescio quis ..." is a set up for an indirect question.

Nescio quis vicerit. I don't know who conquered (I think I said vincerit last time around which is patently wrong).

Niscio quis vincat. I don't know who is winning.

Nescebam quis vinceret. I didn't know who was winning

Nescebam quis vicisset. I didn't know who won.
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:23 am

I guess you could also say. Nescio. Quis vici ?
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Postby Amadeus » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:48 am

Guys, guys, don't fight! I was being facetious when I made that remark. :lol:

Anywho, in my opinion, "nescio quis vicisset" is to be interpreted as "nescio quis in media pugna vicisset", whereas "nescio quis vicerit" as "nescio quis post pugnam vicerit". Am I wrong?

Vale!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby adrianus » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:38 pm

We aren't fighting, Amadeus. I'm just trying to learn. I was uncertain about the grammar here. Three opinions already. [Sorry, two, because Amadeus agrees with Kyneto.] But I have made the mistake. It should be "Nescio quis vicerit, necne verbum ultimum edatur". Kyneto is right. Thanks, K. [As an aside, I don't think you can use "si" to introduce or begin an indirect question.]

Non pugnamus, Amadee! Disco (saltem conor)! Hac de quaestione grammaticae incertus eram. Ecce iam tres sententiae. [Corrigendum: duae, quia Amadeus sententiae Kyneto/Kynetonis assentitur.] Verò peccavisse confiteor. Corrigo "Nescio quis vicerit, necne verbum ultimum edatur." Rectè dicit Kyneto. Gratias ei ago. [Addendum: ut intellego, de obliquis quaestionibus, cum "si" dictione quaestio obliqua introduci vel coeptari numquam licet.]
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:29 pm

As an aside I have just published an essay on the composition board. I was reluctant to post it there for fear that no one ventures there very often. In any event I would be interested in whether you think I have followed proper sequencing of tenses. Does anyone read the composition board? Seems rather dead down there.

This has been a great topic.
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Postby Amadeus » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:27 pm

adrianus wrote:We aren't fighting, Amadeus.


Hahahae. I was trying to be funny again... man I keep failing! :lol:
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby adrianus » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:49 pm

Be happy, Amadeus. That remark definitely succeeded.

Felix sis, bone Amadee. Adnotato novissimo evenisti. Sanè, hilaris erat. :lol:
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Postby Lucus Eques » Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:03 am

adrianus wrote:Sanè, hilaris erat. :lol:


Nonne "hilare"?
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Postby adrianus » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:22 am

You're right, Lucus. Generally, one says "Hilare erat" (no particular subject -- neter). But, in fact, I'm referring to "adnotatus", which is masculine, as "a funny remark" ["Your last remark, it was funny"]. Are both ways not right?

Rectė dicis, Luce. Quotidianè "Hilare erat" (sine particulare subjecto --neutro). Verò autem, "adnotatus" genus masculinum habet, ergo "adnotatus hilaris". Forsitan utrimque verum est, nonne?
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Postby adrianus » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:53 am

accidental post -- sorry
Perperàm collocavi -- me paenitet

Oops, I looked up "adnotatus" and discovered that, while it is indeed masculine, it's a 4th declension noun, not 2nd. declension! So I should have written "Adnotatu novissimo evenisti" instead of ""Adnotato novissimo evenisti".

Hau! Dictionem "adnotatus" in dictionario spectavi. Cum masculini generis quidem sit, inveni, nomen quaternae et non secundae declinationis est. Ideò, me scripsisse oportuit "adnotatu novissimo evenisti" ("adnotato novissimo evenisti" locó).
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Postby Kyneto Valesio » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:25 pm

So back to Evan's pronunciation. This will be my last comment on the matter. Somehow or another details often escape me. So as I began to listen to the adler lessons although I was struck by the novel pronunciation of CUI (which evan himself has now clarified) I didn't really notice many other aspects about his pronunciation which have since been established during our discussions as being desirable for those wishing to speak as the ancients did.

Partly as a result of these discussions I have decided to work to try to fully adopt the classical pronunciation and intend on using Evan, whose pronunciation I first questioned, as my model. From listening to the Adler lessons I think I am beginning to imitate the nasalization of the final "m". However, one area that I am unsure about is the question of elision. Please forgive me; I know this was extensively discussed but I am still unsure how and when to apply the rules of elision. If one of you could kindly just very briefly review the principles of elision, I will be forever grateful. Sorry to seem like such an idiot. Like I said, too frequently important information just passes over me. Eventually though I get it.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:04 pm

Ah, gotcha; I was exspecting it to be neuter since it wasn't "adnotatu."
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Postby adrianus » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:50 pm

Kyneto,
See, for example, Allen & Greenough on elision. For a really beautiful illustration of elision, listen to Vojin Nedeljkovic at Belgrade University reading Latin poetry.
De elisione, vide, exempli gratiâ, Allen & Greenough. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... d%3D%23338
Ausculta recitandum cantorum latinorum à Vojin Nedeljkovic universitatis Belgradensis quod elisionem speciosissimè demonstrat. http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/
Lucus Eques wrote:Ah, gotcha; I was exspecting it to be neuter since it wasn't "adnotatu."

You were twice wrong, then, Luce. But who's counting, really? I make so many mistakes I should be exhausted, but not too exhausted to rely on your help.
Ergo bis erravi, amice. :wink: At, certò, nemo talia numerat. Tot peccata depono ut videatur res deploratae esse. Eò tantùm erro, quantùm auxilio tuo credo.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:29 am

It'll be "erravisti" in your translation — from my Italian experience I can understand that mistake.

What do you mean "twice wrong?"
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Postby adrianus » Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:35 pm

Hi, Lucus. Well, I do think explaining is silly. Nevertheless, as a practice exercise in Latin that may benefit me more than anyone else (especially if you will help by noting mistakes), I will. I say you made two mistakes (thanks for the "erravisti" correction, by the way) because firstly you suggested "hilaris erat" was a mistake and then, after I had corrected myself about something else, you said you had believed "adnotato" just had to be neuter. [Altering the line to "Adnotato novissimo evenisti. Sanè, hilare erat." to make "hilare" agree with "adnotato" is to make two mistakes: "hilare" will be wrong and "adnotato" will be wrong.] Your saying "gotcha!" seemed to be unfair because I had gotten myself regarding "adnotatu". You sounded like you had just sprung, and I was wanting to say "please stop frightening me by jumping out of bushes".

Salve, Luce care. Quod quaeris me explicare frivolum est, ut opinor. Verumtamen, ut exercitatio in me ostendendo latinè sit, explicabo, et proinde fortasse ego saltem sapientior fiam (maximè cum auxilio tuo), etiamsi nemo alius. Dico bis errares (sincerè corrigendo "erravisti" tibi gratias, incidenter) quod primùm cum "hilaris erat" me erravisse admonuisti. Deinde, post alibi me errorem correxisse, dixisti te dictionem "adnotato" generis neutrius esse credere. In dicendo "te cepi!", te inaequus esse putavi, quia ratione "adnotatu" me ipse captus eram. Mihi videbatur te quasi ad meum salivisse, et tibi sic queritari volebam: "desinas me timere in saliendo ex arbusculis".
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Postby quendidil » Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:08 am

What about the schwa like sound at the end of "hoc"? Is that correct?
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Postby Amadeus » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:32 am

Quendidil, I believe that he is saying "hocce" (or "hicce"). The simple "hoc" shouldn't have a schwa, however; that's italian, not latin.
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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hic haec hoc

Postby metrodorus » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:58 am

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Postby Lucus Eques » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:51 pm

Amadeus wrote:Quendidil, I believe that he is saying "hocce" (or "hicce"). The simple "hoc" shouldn't have a schwa, however; that's italian, not latin.


Exactly what, may I ask, is Italian about a schwa? Do you mean when they can't end words with consonants? Neither can your folk so well, mi querido mexicano. ;) Although you yourself have clearly mastered this, as I hear from your recordings.
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Postby Amadeus » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:10 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:Exactly what, may I ask, is Italian about a schwa? Do you mean when they can't end words with consonants? Neither can your folk so well, mi querido mexicano. ;) Although you yourself have clearly mastered this, as I hear from your recordings.


I dont' think spanish-speaking people add schwas at the end of words, or at least I'm not aware of it. I do know that, for example, many of my fellow mexicans can't say "Star", they say "Estar", but that is at the beginning of a word. Can you give me an example, Luke? :wink:
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:35 pm

Amadeus wrote:
I dont' think spanish-speaking people add schwas at the end of words, or at least I'm not aware of it. I do know that, for example, many of my fellow mexicans can't say "Star", they say "Estar", but that is at the beginning of a word. Can you give me an example, Luke? :wink:


They do, for consonants that don't occur at the end of Spanish words often, like 'k' or 't' — although the issue is probably more common with Italians, mostly that's a stereotype.
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Postby Amadeus » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:05 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:They do, for consonants that don't occur at the end of Spanish words often, like 'k' or 't' — although the issue is probably more common with Italians, mostly that's a stereotype.


Hmmm... as far as I know, neither k nor t are proper Spanish word-endings. They are usually dropped, like in "bufé" instead of "bufet" or "bisté" instead of "bistec". No schwa there. :wink: Do you have a more concrete example?

Ok, now listen to this italian fellow speaking latin:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-v1f1AQsdPY&feature=related

Notice he says "estÉ™" and not "est"?
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

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Re: hic haec hoc

Postby Alatius » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:45 pm

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Re: hic haec hoc

Postby Amadeus » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:01 pm

Salve, Alati!

Is that really you in the Youtube video?! I must say that was quite a show! I thoroughly enjoyed it. :D Vale!

P.S.: Nice socks :P
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

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Postby Arvid » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:39 pm

Lucus Eques wrote: — although the issue is probably more common with Italians, mostly that's a stereotype.


It is a stereotype, and the Italians unfairly get most of the attention for it, but native speakers of many other languages tend to add these schwas between words to break up some of the more congested consonant clusters that can occur in English when final and initial consonants butt up against each other. Even native speakers have problems with some of them, so don't feel bad! (We sound equally absurd when attempting some of the truly heroic sequences of consonants in German.) What we tend to do is simplify them rather than breaking them up, and this is why it sounds different enough to attract attention. I get the impression that Latin was more permissive in this regard than, well, Italian for example...but maybe there were schwas breaking up some of these clusters that just weren't written? Just an idea.
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Postby timeodanaos » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:20 pm

Arvid wrote:(We sound equally absurd when attempting some of the truly heroic sequences of consonants in German.)


Although off-topic, heroic, I must say, is the ONLY correct word to apply to the clusters -schch- and -tzt- in German. Especially following each other (although I've never seen that)
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Re: hic haec hoc

Postby Alatius » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:51 pm

Amadeus wrote:Is that really you in the Youtube video?! I must say that was quite a show! I thoroughly enjoyed it. :D Vale!

P.S.: Nice socks :P

Haha, yup, it is; glad you liked it. :) Of course, I would have prefered to wear soleae, as well as a proper (woolen) toga of course, but that will be for a later time. :wink:

Arvid wrote:(We sound equally absurd when attempting some of the truly heroic sequences of consonants in German.)

The usual Swedish example of consonant clusters is the adjective "västkustskt" (which is an adverb or adjective in the neuter, meaning "belonging to the west coast"). Even better is the (slightly contrived) word "blixtskt" ("having to do with someone named Blixt"): that is six consecutive consonant phonemes at the end of a word! Can German beat that?
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hocce

Postby metrodorus » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:57 pm

Salve Johannes.

Verum non "hoc" dico, sed "hocce". Scribit Adler " hic is often increased by the addition of the syllable -ce, as hicce, hocce, hujusce, &c" (pg 37).
Ergone, non 'ante'classical' est ? Sonitus hicce et hocce amo. Appellatio mea, viz. cui, cogito fortisan 'ante-classical' est, qui "quoi" dico.

-Metrodorus.
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Re: hic haec hoc

Postby ingrid70 » Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:54 pm

Arvid wrote:The usual Swedish example of consonant clusters is the adjective "västkustskt" (which is an adverb or adjective in the neuter, meaning "belonging to the west coast"). Even better is the (slightly contrived) word "blixtskt" ("having to do with someone named Blixt"): that is six consecutive consonant phonemes at the end of a word! Can German beat that?


The quite common word 'slechtst' (worst) has 5 consonant phonemes (ch being one phoneme); and because in Dutch we write compounds without spaces, the 'worst-writing writer' becomes the "slechtstschrijvende" schrijver.

Ingrid
quoting from 'Opperlans', a book that plays games with the dutch language.
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Postby Alatius » Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:58 pm

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Re: hic haec hoc

Postby nov ialiste » Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:20 am

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Sound of hoc/hocc/hocce

Postby metrodorus » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:44 pm

Johan's point about reading the classical authors using hoc when they write hoc, is a valid one, but in informal quoting of a text in spoken conversation, I think this is less of an issue. As I said, I like the sound of hocce, hicce, etc in spoken informal Latin. I also personally find [hocc] quite hard to say. Until I can do it well enough to make me happy, you will be hearing more of hocce than of hocc from me.



-Evan.
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Latinum Podcast re-organisation

Postby metrodorus » Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:08 pm

To make the podcast somewhat easier to navigate, I have now placed an index to the podcast on the right hand sidebar, a more satisfactory arrangement than my previous image file, which had no direct links to the pages containing the information.
http://latinum.mypodcast.com

I have also added a similar topic index to the imaginum vocabularium latinum which had become unwieldy, with over 1600 entries.

http://imaginumvocabulariumlatinum.blogspot.com/

-Evan.
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Re: Latinum Podcast re-organisation

Postby cantator » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:10 pm

metrodorus wrote:To make the podcast somewhat easier to navigate, I have now placed an index to the podcast on the right hand sidebar, a more satisfactory arrangement than my previous image file, which had no direct links to the pages containing the information.
http://latinum.mypodcast.com


Very nice, I like the new look.

However, it's "Cantator", not "Cantantor". :)
Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.
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Thanks

Postby metrodorus » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:26 pm

Corrections have been made :)

If you'd like to have a go recording some more Catullus I'd be really keen to fill out the corpus of Catullus readings.

I've uploaded a couple more chapters of Adler today. I'm going under the knife on Wednesday, ENT operation (nothing too serious, though any operation is a bit scary). So, I'll not be recording, I think, for a couple of weeks.

Evan.
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