Textkit Logo

Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Here you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Latin, and more.

Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:07 am

Salvete!

I am thinking about investing in a good print edition (i.e. hardcover) of a good dictionary, and I have more or less settled on Lewis & Short, because this seems to be the one recommended (among others by Reginaldus Thomas Foster in Ossa Latinitatis Sola (and a book review here), which I have recently acquired.

I am willing to spend a bit of money here, since it is a long term investment. Still, I want to make sure that I settle on the right thing. L&S seems to be available only as a reprint based on various original print editions, the most common seems the 1879-edition. Does anyone have experience with these reprints? Any recommendations?

And what about the difference between L&S A Latin Dictionary (1879) and L&S A New Latin Dictionary (1891). Is there any major difference?

Valete,

Carolus Raeticus
Sperate miseri, cavete felices.
Carolus Raeticus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:46 am

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby mwh » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:00 pm

Salve Carole. svb.
I think it would be ill-advised to invest in a hardcopy L&S rather the Oxford Latin Dictionary, which is indisputably a much better Latin dictionary. Reginald Foster’s preference for L&S is understandable: it’s heavy on Cicero, and it's what he was brought up with. But to opt for the antiquated L&S over the OLD today would seem a perverse and reactionary choice.
mwh
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2807
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby Nesrad » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:26 am

Mwh, doesn't your advice assume that Carolus will be reading strictly classical Latin?

Carolus, what will you be using it for? What languages other than English do you understand?
Nesrad
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:10 pm

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:04 am

Salvete!

Nesrad wrote:Carolus, what will you be using it for? What languages other than English do you understand?

Well, apart from English I find reading Spanish fairly easy. I can also read French, at least enough to read Le Monde diplomatique (although sociologists' articles in French are a nightmare). I can read Italian enough to understand popular historical magazines (I never learned Italian actively, i. e. using a grammar or text book, but since I can read Spanish...). And German of course, my mother tongue. Note: I am not a scholar or anything. I just like reading in foreign languages, the puzzle they pose and the way they open up.

Nesrad is right, I do not intend to concentrate solely on classical literature. I want to read more of that as well, but I want to roam the entire Latin literature and will probably concentrate on Neolatin. L&S is a compromise, I am aware of that. But I am not yet ready to move to multiple big dictionaries. I just want a good overall dictionary that is beyond dictionaries like Cassell's.

As for the Oxford Latin Dictionary. I like its print (see below), and being distributed among two volumes is certainly better for the binding. But the very fact is yet another point against OLD because I find juggling multiple volumes unpleasant.

By the way, I found two fairly helpful videos on YouTube which present the OLD and the L&S. One can get an idea of how these two dictionaries look like (perhaps useful for others reading this thread):

So I have settled on L&S (at least for now, perhaps later on...) and am looking for a decent print edition: good reprint with a good binding. Any idea or suggestion?

Valete,

Carolus Raeticus
Sperate miseri, cavete felices.
Carolus Raeticus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:46 am

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby Nesrad » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:23 am

I don't want to seem insistent, since you have already made your choice but I'd like to point out that L&S is based on a German dictionary, and you might find something more appropriate in German. Personally, my mother tongue is French, so I am happy to have the Gaffiot, which is a nice compromise between being complete enough, not too bulky, and affordable. L&S on the other hand, though very complete and not too bulky, is a rather expensive book.
Nesrad
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:10 pm

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:31 pm

Nesrad wrote:I don't want to seem insistent, since you have already made your choice but I'd like to point out that L&S is based on a German dictionary, and you might find something more appropriate in German.

Your suggestion is not a bad one. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a real German alternative. There is Der neue Georges: Ausführliches Handwörterbuch Lateinisch-Deutsch (in 2 volumes). But that is only a superficially updated version of a 1913 dictionary (mostly to get rid of the Fraktur-typeface and adapt some of the more antiquated expressions). And that one costs EUR 145.00. So...I am still set on getting an L&S.

Vale,

Carolus Raeticus
Sperate miseri, cavete felices.
Carolus Raeticus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:46 am

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby rothbard » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:46 pm

Why not buy the OLD? About L&S, you may want to read this before buying it.
rothbard
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:30 pm
Location: London

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:20 pm

rothbard wrote:Why not buy the OLD? About L&S, you may want to read this before buying it.


Despite its flaws (including the minor ones listed in the "notes" you reference above), it covers a wider range antiquity than does the OLD. That makes it attractive for people reading Latin outside of the traditionally marked "classical period."
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 608
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:42 pm

Salvete!

Thank you for the suggestions and comments. I have already ordered my copy of L&S (a reprint). However,... hm...dare I mention it? I have to admit that I couldn't help myself and ordered the OLD as well. It should arrive within a week. The reason are twofold. On the one hand I was probably just too weak to resist the temptation. On the other hand, having both fits a switch to a two-pronged attack on Latin.

So far I have read mostly in a way that fits more the definition of multa legere, neglecting the multum legere. I want to do both, but I have realized that tackling Latin in a more conscious and conscientious way is needed if I want to make serious progress. I intend to use the OLD for this in-depth reading, because for that I will choose only classical authors. Plus: I like the clear and fresh "look" of the OLD (I had a peak at some pages at Amazon). The L&S will be the book for multa legere because it is single volume and covers a greater range of time.

Also, you can find points to be criticized in any book whatsoever. I am sure that once the Thesaurus Linguae Latinae is finished (that should be the case by 2050 if Wikipedia is to be trusted), the OLD will have to face similar critique. In my opinion perfection is the enemy of the good.

Valete,

Carolus Raeticus
Sperate miseri, cavete felices.
Carolus Raeticus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:46 am

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby Nesrad » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:50 pm

To each his own, but I would find it quite inconvenient to use either the OLD or L&S for casual reading (multa legere), i.e. kicking up your heels in an armchair and plowing through a given author. It takes too long to scan the entries, and these are heavy, bulky books. My go-to dictionary for the classical authors is Lewis's Elementary Latin Dictionary, 9 times out of 10 it gives me exactly the information I was seeking. For later authors, there is no satisfactory compact dictionary in English, in my opinion.

There is a dictionary that I would consider ideal for casual reading. It's neither too big, nor too small, and it could be used by people of all nationalities, since it's a monolingual dictionary. I'm referring to Facciolati and Forcellini's Calepinus Septem Linguarum, which reads like an abridgement of the Totius Latinitatis Lexicon. Though it predates the Totius LL, the latest edition was published after the Totius LL, probably because it met the need for a smaller dictionary. But at the time, monolingual dictionaries were already going out of style. When we finally have artificial intelligence, maybe it will be possible to OCR the impossible 18th century typeset and publish a modern edition.
Nesrad
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:10 pm

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby hlawson38 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:58 pm

Nesrad wrote:To each his own, but I would find it quite inconvenient to use either the OLD or L&S for casual reading (multa legere), i.e. kicking up your heels in an armchair and plowing through a given author. It takes too long to scan the entries, and these are heavy, bulky books.


Thanks for mentioning this, Nesrad. This is also my preferred reading posture. I keep nearby an old smartphone with Whitaker's Words and a Lewis & Short app. I also have handy Traupman's paperback student dictionary. My Latin text, usually LCL lies on a clipboard, with a 4x6 unlined notecard, or a slip of paper masking the English text, and providing a place for writing out the Latin sentence in phrases.

Since Traupman is never mentioned here I assume he is regarded as substandard, but I find him helpful, and he is small enough. Sometimes I use Gaffiot's Latin-French student dictionary. Both Traupman and Gaffiot translate the Latin examples, awfully helpful for us weaklings. I haven't used Gaffiot much lately, but his examples seem very well chosen, and I can make out the French.

I probably should use Lewis's ELD, because it's not actually too big for armchair reading. I like Traupman's grammar tables, which I need now and then.

Sometimes I read at my computer, I put the troublesome passage in a text editor, break the lines in helpful ways, and use online dictionaries.
hlawson38
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:38 am

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby Nesrad » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:02 am

I've never used Traupman, does it have many examples?

I also use the Gaffiot pocket edition as often as the ELD, and exclusively for late authors. It's the only compact dictionary I know of that is useful for post-Classical texts, and the translations are really useful, although they take up space that might be better used for more examples, which is why I tend to prefer the ELD for Classical authors.

I do recommend getting the ELD, but not the current facsimile reprint, which is rather expensive. You will find nice older ones for cheap on Abebooks.
Nesrad
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:10 pm

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby hlawson38 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:13 am

Nesrad wrote:I've never used Traupman, does it have many examples?

I also use the Gaffiot pocket edition as often as the ELD, and exclusively for late authors. It's the only compact dictionary I know of that is useful for post-Classical texts, and the translations are really useful, although they take up space that might be better used for more examples, which is why I tend to prefer the ELD for Classical authors.

I do recommend getting the ELD, but not the current facsimile reprint, which is rather expensive. You will find nice older ones for cheap on Abebooks.


On Traupman's examples: I count 25 for the verb fero. Traupman gives one-sentence sketches of many of the characters who turn up in Ovid's Metamorphoses. I've worn out two or three Traupmans, but they only cost about six dollars (US).

I have Lewis's ELD. I got a used-like-new copy for a good price, IIRC. It's about twice the physical size of Traupman, which is the typical USA mass-market paperback size. I use Traupman more often because of the size.

I like Gaffiot. He seems to have a thorough knowledge of what students need, and the translations of the examples really help me. It's quite annoying when I have to look up words in the examples.
hlawson38
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:38 am

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby rothbard » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:46 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
rothbard wrote:Why not buy the OLD? About L&S, you may want to read this before buying it.


Despite its flaws (including the minor ones listed in the "notes" you reference above), it covers a wider range antiquity than does the OLD. That makes it attractive for people reading Latin outside of the traditionally marked "classical period."

If the OP can read German, which seems to be the case, then I would probably recommend the 1917 edition of "F.A. Heinichens Lateinisch-deutsches Schulwörterbuch", by Heinrich Blase, Wilhelm Reeb and Otto Hoffmann. It covers up to the early 5th century AD and includes an interesting 67-page introduction on the derivation of Latin sounds and words, conversational and late Latin. Moreover, it's quite cheap (I got my copy for about 20 euros a few years ago).

A 1931 edition, which I also have, includes words and expressions used by Medieval authors, distinguished from the rest by a lower typeface. However, this edition was slightly abridged compared to the previous one.
rothbard
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:30 pm
Location: London

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby rothbard » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:49 am

hlawson38 wrote:Thanks for mentioning this, Nesrad. This is also my preferred reading posture. I keep nearby an old smartphone with Whitaker's Words and a Lewis & Short app. I also have handy Traupman's paperback student dictionary. My Latin text, usually LCL lies on a clipboard, with a 4x6 unlined notecard, or a slip of paper masking the English text, and providing a place for writing out the Latin sentence in phrases.

Have you tried using Godmy's Digital Forcellini online? It's become my favourite dictionary. I use it on my mobile phone all the time.
rothbard
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:30 pm
Location: London

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby Nesrad » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:29 am

Have you tried using Godmy's Digital Forcellini online? It's become my favourite dictionary. I use it on my mobile phone all the time.


A very useful tool, but hardly appropriate for casual reading, because the entries are so long. Also, I don't like forming a dependence on online dictionaries that can be there one day, and disappear the next.
Nesrad
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:10 pm

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby hlawson38 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:11 am

rothbard wrote:
hlawson38 wrote:Thanks for mentioning this, Nesrad. This is also my preferred reading posture. I keep nearby an old smartphone with Whitaker's Words and a Lewis & Short app. I also have handy Traupman's paperback student dictionary. My Latin text, usually LCL lies on a clipboard, with a 4x6 unlined notecard, or a slip of paper masking the English text, and providing a place for writing out the Latin sentence in phrases.

Have you tried using Godmy's Digital Forcellini online? It's become my favourite dictionary. I use it on my mobile phone all the time.


I just looked at it rothbard, and found it too much for me. But I can see the value of spending a few weeks learning how to read the entries.
hlawson38
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:38 am

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby pin130 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:38 am

Carolus, you asked if anyone had experience with a Lewis and Short reprint. I bought a reprint from Lulu
about five years ago. It's divided into three rather large paperback volumes; the binding is solid. I got it on sale at the time for around $49.00. It seems to be a reprint of an Oxford edition, the last date being 1958.
As for the print, it is small as I imagine the original was and I would certainly use my reading glasses. The clarity of the print is pretty good, nothing like the original I'm sure, but to my eyes readable at least for a short read as is usually the case with a dictionary. For extended reading I wouldn't know.
pin130
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Looking for: Print edition of Lewis & Short

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:26 pm

Hello pin130,

Thank you for sharing your experience with the Lulu-edition, but I already ordered an L&S-reprint. I shall report my impression of it once I have it. In the meantime I have started work on Livy's Ab urbe condita using the OLD.

Vale(te),

Carolus Raeticus
Sperate miseri, cavete felices.
Carolus Raeticus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:46 am


Return to Learning Latin