Improvements for Lingua Latina?

[Cicero72]

Salvete. I discovered the Lingua Latina per se illustrata books a couple of months ago and I immediately became in love with them. Now looking at any other language material I have become so spoiled by being able to just read and enjoy that I usually don't finish. With that in mind, I actually already know German and would greatly enjoy trying to spread the wonderful system of Lingua Latina to other languages as well as my amateur self can attempt. So my question for all of you is (who have read Lingua Latin, or similar books like Athenaze), if you had to rewrite Lingua Latina how would you improve it? I have already come up with a couple tweaks, for example, to still keep the structure the same so you can still figure everything out by context but I will have a number at the corner on every new word with a corresponding English word at the bottom of the page.
I know it may go against the concept of a monolingual language book but I, personally, found a lot of Lingua Latina' context to be too vague to figure out, and I would just end up googling it (Which google translate doesn't work very well with Latin). But keeping the structure the same so, ideally, you could go through without looking at the English, but just as a help.
I found a couple of things like that that I'm going to test out and I was wondering what else you could think of.

[Laurentius Mons]

I am a fan of the LLPSI series, too, and I agree creating similar books for other languages is a very good idea! Are you aware of the books "English by the Nature Method", "Le Français par la Méthode Nature", and "L'Italiano secondo il Metodo Natura"? These books use pretty much the same approach as Lingua Latina.

The fact that it is completely monolingual is actually one of the things I love about LLPSI, so I definitely would not change that. However, for those who want to clarify the meaning of a certain word, there is a Latin-English vocabulary list available. You can get it either as a booklet, for example on Amazon, or you can look for a PDF version online.

One thing I would like to see added, not changed, is professional audio recordings of the auxiliary volumes (Sermones Romani, Colloquia Personarum, etc.). I really enjoyed Ørberg's recordings of Familia Romana and I think having more quality audio available would be very beneficial.

What are the other potential changes you were thinking about?

[Cicero72]

I am aware of those and I personally din't like them very much. The concept is good but, sadly, these books are being written by language teachers and not authors. I am attempting to craft a legitimately good story that instead of reading the book to learn the language you will learn the language to read the book. As to other improvements, I want to find other ways to add as much 'forgiveness' as possible and not expect the reader to have every word and grammatical lesson perfected after every chapter. I also got pretty annoyed with the fact that Lingua Latina kept increasing it's vocabulary dumps and chapter lengths.So I hope to work up to a moderate pace and then keep every chapter about the same length, if the reader is ready for more then do another. And finally, I hope to find a way to teach grammar differently. Our brains do not work by grammar charts and what name a certain verb ending has. We learn grammar by noticing patterns, so that is what I hope to do. To point out patterns in the text and what they signify with as little grammatical nonsense as possible. And to have points throughout the book that reminds the reader about the patterns and increasing distances (will still have, optional, exercises) .
So in the end it's probably going to be very different from Lingua Latina, but hopefully in an improved way.

[Laurentius Mons]

I think writing a legitimately good story for total beginners in a language is a very good idea, but it is also a very tricky thing to do. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I think it is very difficult because keeping it simple and making it interesting are somewhat conflicting goals. Considering that, I think Ørberg did a decent job. I admit I probably wouldn't read Familia Romana for pleasure in my native language, but I never found it boring and there are actually many parts that I found quite interesting, especially the mythological bits. Also, when I first read Familia Romana, I was thrilled by the fact that I could suddenly read Latin, which was quite motivating in itself.

Adding more 'forgiveness' (I think I would use the word redundancy, in a positive sense) seems a good idea, I agree. I think this can be achieved by recycling the vocab and structures over and over again, so you can't really miss it and will memorise it through reading alone. However, the way I see it this would mean that you'd have to increase the overall length of the book.

I agree with your point about chapter length and the amount of vocab per chapter, although I think that the Italian Athenaze is much worse in this respect than Lingua Latina. The chapter length varies considerably, and some chapters are more than 400 lines, which I think is too much. While I like that both series contain lots of text, I think having more, but slightly shorter, chapters would be a good idea.

I actually like the way Lingua Latina deals with grammar, i.e. by introducing it first in the text and then giving a concise explanation and summary. I don't have the impression that it relies on charts too much or overuses metalanguage, or at least it seems much better than other books I've seen in that respect. Could you maybe provide an example of what 'pointing out patterns in the text and what they signify' might look like and how it would differ from what's done in LLPSI?

I've actually started working on a LLPSI-style German book a while ago. However, the project hasn't progressed very far yet.

[anphph]

As to other improvements, I want to find other ways to add as much 'forgiveness' as possible and not expect the reader to have every word and grammatical lesson perfected after every chapter.

I think there's only so much repetition you can do without making the book twice or three times as long than it already is. It already repeats concepts a number of times, but if you just cruise it and advance a chapter without having really mastered the previous one you will slide, and you will start losing the feeling of satisfaction at reading always Latin by yourself. I don't know how this could be otherwise.

[Cicero72]

Yes it is difficult but I think that it is very possible. I am trying to have it set up so the 'stream' of new vocabulary will change according to how exciting the scene is, if that makes any sense. So throughout the book there will be climaxes where I introduce very little new vocabulary and allow the reader to just enjoy their new level of literacy, all the while in between introducing the vocabulary necessary to enjoy the climaxes, if that makes any sense. So then you are not just having to constantly push through a never ending flow of words. With that it mind, I have always been kind of annoyed with other readers for the fact that they are always very childish. I've decided to right about a boy in Germania, around 50 BC, in the Chatti tribe (sub-tribe of the Suebi, which were east of the Gauls). I have no aversion to adding in any gore or swearing for the sake of historical accuracy (and using them in the aforementioned climaxes). So all together I think it is very possible to create a genuinely interesting story, despite it's necessary simplicity, and some quotes from Tacitus' Germania and the end of some chapters (where a cultural reference is made) may help in adding more value.

Of all the Gods, Mercury is he whom they worship most. To him on certain stated days it is lawful to offer even human victims. Hercules and Mars they appease with beasts usually allowed for sacrifice. Some of the Suevians make likewise immolations to Isis. Concerning the cause and original of this foreign sacrifice I have found small light; unless the figure of her image formed like a ialley, show that such devotion arrived from abroad. For the rest, from the grandeur and majesty of beings celestial, they judge it altogether unsuitable to hold the Gods enclosed within walls, or to represent them under any human likeness. They consecrate whole woods and groves, and by the names of the Gods they call these recesses; divinities these, which only in contemplation and mental reverence they behold.

Yeah, things like that are going to be worked in, some how. As for Grammar, I hope to possibly use colors to point out patterns. If, for example, I wanted to teach the past tense of weak verbs I may use a past tense weak verb in context and have the changed colored red (so the 'ge' and 't' in 'gelernt' would be more noticeable) and do that with every other past tense weak verb in the chapter. And at increasing distances remind them of that rule (so if it come up in chapter 3 it may be re-pointed out in chapter 8 then at chapter 15 and 30). But, I have not gotten far enough yet to tell if this is even completely possible yet.
And to Anphph, I intend to do a similar patter with the vocabulary thus adding more 'forgiveness', and I am not afraid of re-informing them on a meaning of a word if, for some reason, I couldn't work it into anything for a long enough time, or if there is a form of a word that is too different from the original, treating it as if it is new. I also hope to intend to have sort of 'mini stories' at the end of some chapters that break away from the main story will allow me to put more direct attention on certain words or grammar patterns that I may not have been able to work in to the story.
But this is getting a little off topic, is there anything that you wish was different with Lingua Latina? I will genuinely consider any suggestions.

[Eltonvgl]

It's so difficult to think about something that that book is lacking! I've tried to find, when I was reading, but it was very difficult to find something that need improvement. I strongly disagree with the idea of footnotes written in English. The core of lingua latina is that it's written completely in Latin, so anyone can have access to the book, even if they don't speak English. By the way I speak Portuguese and would find very sad for a book written in Latin to have footnotes in English but not in Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French, Romenian etc. These last languages have much more in common with Latin than English, so they'd deserve more to have footnotes than English. Just my opinion.

Obs: I'm well aware that English in the lingua franca of today, but I always like to stress how much it is important to value the languages that are derived from Latin, that were aforementioned above.