spectare....ne gratuita praeterita parricidia...

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pmda
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spectare....ne gratuita praeterita parricidia...

Post by pmda »

From Orberg LLPSI: Cap XLIV

Tum vero in dies infestior Tullii senectus, infestius regnum coepit esse. Iam enim ab scelere ad aliud scelus spectare mulier. Nec nocte nec interdiu virum conquiescere, ne gratuita praeterita parricidia essent: 'non sibi defuisse maritum cum quo tacita serviret — defuisse virum qui se regno dignum esse putaret, qui meminisset se esse Prisci Tarquinii filium, qui habere quam sperare regnum mallet!' "Si tu is es cui nuptam esse me arbitror, et virum et regem appello: quin accingeris?

spectare mulier - I think this refers to the wife of Lucius Tarquinius (the story of how they mudered their respective spouses and then married is recounted in the preceding paragraphs) and indicates that she contemplated, committed I suppose in the sense of 'wasn't above considering' in English.

The phrase '...ne gratuita praeterita parricidia essent' is actually referenced in L&S as meaning 'without effect, in vain..' Now I was trying to figure out literally what it means. 'nor would there have been gratuitous omission of parricide (to keep to the English cognates).' - or to put it in active voice and idiomatically 'they would have engaged in the murder of relatives to get their way...'

Do I have this right?

mwh
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Re: spectare....ne gratuita praeterita parricidia...

Post by mwh »

spectare Yes “she was looking from one crime to another.” She went on committing more crimes to cover up the spouse-murders.

'...ne gratuita praeterita parricidia essent' “so that their past parricides shouldn’t be in vain.” If it were discovered that they’d murdered their spouses, the murders would have been committed for nothing.

She's not a very nice person.

pmda
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Re: spectare....ne gratuita praeterita parricidia...

Post by pmda »

Thanks.

pmda
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Re: spectare....ne gratuita praeterita parricidia...

Post by pmda »

I'm trying to figure out the phrase at the beginning of this paragraph.

Tum vero in dies infestior, Tulli senectus, infestius regnum coepit esse.

Orberg indicates in the margin in dies -ior = cotidie -ior


This is confusing. in + dies (during?) suggests that dies is acc. pl. If infestior describes dies then it should be infestiores ? so it must describe senectus ?

The trouble is that coepit is not a transitive verb so that bit simply means the kingdom began to be more dangerous (precarious?). So the preceding clause Tum vero in dies infestior, Tulli Senectus doesn't even have a verb. So is it doing the kind of job doe by an ablative absolute: 'Then truly [with] the old age of Tullius [growing] more dangerous every day...'[?]

I'm reading the meaning as something like: 'Then certainly Tullius' old age, daily more dangerous, the kingdome [itself] began to be more dangerous...?'

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furrykef
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Re: spectare....ne gratuita praeterita parricidia...

Post by furrykef »

Yes, I think "coepit esse" applies to both "infestior senectus" and "infestius regnum". It's like how I can say "Marco malum, Iuliae rosam dedi", and even though I said "dedi" only once, hopefully you understood that I gave Marcus an apple and Julia a rose (now I just did the same thing in English).

EDIT: A translation from 1905 translates the line as, "From that time the old age of Tullius became more embittered, his reign more unhappy."
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pmda
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Re: spectare....ne gratuita praeterita parricidia...

Post by pmda »

many thanks.

Hylander
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Re: spectare....ne gratuita praeterita parricidia...

Post by Hylander »

in dies = day by day

Things got worse and worse day by day.
Bill Walderman

pmda
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Re: spectare....ne gratuita praeterita parricidia...

Post by pmda »

OK so dies here is acc plural ?

Hylander
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Re: spectare....ne gratuita praeterita parricidia...

Post by Hylander »

dies here is acc plural
Yes.
Orberg indicates in the margin in dies -ior = cotidie -ior
He's telling you that in dies with a comparative adjective (or adverb) is an idiom that means "day by day," "every day," "on a daily basis."
Bill Walderman

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