Construction "alter alterum"

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Carolus Raeticus
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Construction "alter alterum"

Post by Carolus Raeticus »

Salvete,

In Exercise 169 Adler presents us with the following sentence:
Adler wrote:
  • Do you like your sister? Diligisne sororem tuam?
  • I like her much, and as she is very complaisant towards me, I am so towards her; but how do you like yours? Ego eam valde (maxime) diligo, et quoniam ea erga me officiosissima (benignissima) est, ego erga eam pariter (similiter /or/ non minus) sum; tu autem quomodo tuam diligis?
  • We love each other, because we are pleased with each other. Nos inter nos amamus (/or/ alter alterum amamus) propterea, quod inter nos contenti sumus (/or/ probamur).
I assume that the second speaker is male. So we deal with a brother and his sister. Why then the construction alter alterum (both masculine) instead of alter alteram or altera alterum (both masculine and feminine)? I did a full text search on the Latin Library-texts and found only ever occurrences of alter alterum (masculine only). But that might be only because the respective deal only with male persons.

Valete,

Carolus Raeticus
Sperate miseri, cavete felices.

mwh
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Re: Construction "alter alterum"

Post by mwh »

This alter alterum idiom expresses a relationship that’s reciprocal, reversible, so both have to take the same gender. *alter alteram would be contradictory: you can't have the one (male) loving the other (female) without the other loving the one. If one of the two is male, as we must infer is the case here, both will be masculine, just as contenti is masculine (and nos too). Latin’s a sexist language.

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calvinist
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Re: Construction "alter alterum"

Post by calvinist »

mwh wrote: Latin’s a sexist language.
Funny you say that; I've seen people actually propose removing gender from Spanish because it's sexist. Then again, bathrooms are incredibly sexist. I don't think we're far off from uni-sex or pan-sex bathrooms. Society is progressing... but toward what? That's enough of my political ranting. :D

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Re: Construction "alter alterum"

Post by mwh »

Toward a more equal world, perhaps? If only.

A language is as sexist as its culture, no? Gender is not sexist (or not overtly, the feminist in me has to add), but privileging masculine over feminine is.

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Re: Construction "alter alterum"

Post by Carolus Raeticus »

Thank you, mwh, for your competent answer.

Carolus Raeticus
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calvinist
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Re: Construction "alter alterum"

Post by calvinist »

mwh wrote:Toward a more equal world, perhaps? If only.

A language is as sexist as its culture, no? Gender is not sexist (or not overtly, the feminist in me has to add), but privileging masculine over feminine is.

Without turning it into a political debate I'll just add that the phrase "equal world" is heavily loaded with presuppositions and assumptions held by whoever says it. It is as meaningless as saying a "good world", because it relies upon the world view of whoever says it. There isn't a rigorous scientific method to discover what is "equal". Some believe equality would mean the end of abortion (equal right to life for the unborn child), some think it would mean the legalization of incest and polygamy (right of consenting adults to marry whomever they want).

All western countries have some sort of understanding of equality enshrined in law to my knowledge. I don't know of any western country where for instance racism or sexism is enshrined in law, so in that sense we're already there. But in another sense we're not; to me "equality" means justice for all, and I don't see the world getting any better when one looks at the rate of murder, rape, divorce, etc. Divorce is an epidemic in western countries, and there is a large multitude of children growing up in broken families.

The problem with much political discussion is that it stays surface level with loaded words like "equal", "right", "justice", "good", "bad", etc. None of these words have scientific definitions, they are loaded with subjective values that differ from person to person. Politics is fundamentally about morality, which means it is something that touches upon the deepest questions ever asked: Who are we? Where did we come from? Is there a God? Is there an absolute standard of right and wrong? Is there a purpose to humanity or will it matter none once our sun burns out and the earth is destroyed with all memory of everything that happened here? Is government something more than using the threat of suffering (fines, confiscation of property, imprisonment, or death) to enforce conformity to the behavior desired by those in power (how fast you must drive, whether you are allowed to homeschool your children, etc.).

I know that was a long reply, but I wanted to make the point that an "equal world" is just the tip of the ice berg, there's much lying under that phrase.

But, back to Adler, I wasn't aware that alter functioned that way. I didn't realize alter... alteram wasn't possible. I defer to your superior Latinity, mwh :D. It seems that the term views the two as part of a class or set: the one and the other (of whatever class). So that when applied to people of different sex the reason for maintaining masculine gender would be that the class homo is assumed: alter homo... alterum hominem. Or am I thinking too deeply about this?

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