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Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

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Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby pmda » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:19 pm

Interim Tullus ferox, praecipue morte regis, nocte praeteritis hostium castris infesto exercitu in agrum Albanum pergit. Ea res ab stativis excivit Mettium. Ducit quam proxime ad hostem potest. Inde legatum praemissum nuntiare Tullo iubet, 'priusquam dimicent, opus esse colloquio; se aliquid allaturum esse quod non minus ad rem Romanam quam ad Albanam pertineat.'

In the meantime Tullos, emboldened by the death of the king, during the night-time avoiding the camps of the enemy, entered Alban land by means of armed invasion. This development stirred Mettius from his permanent camp. He led his forces as close to the enemy as he could. From there he sent a legate ahead ordering him to tell Tullus, 'Before one fights, it is customary to talk; whatever is about to happen is not less pertinent to the Romans than to the Albani.

se aliquid allaturum esse = quidquid eveniturum est?
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby Tertius Robertus » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:53 pm

Allaturum is the future participle of affero -- convey, inform, report, or whatever.

se aliquid allaturum -- [he says] he will convey [to him, i.e., to Tullo] something that is not less pertinent etc
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby Qimmik » Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:07 pm

priusquam dimicent, opus esse colloquio

"before they [i.e., the Roman and Alban soldiers] fight , a conference/parley is needed/necessary"

dimicent -- note subjunctive with priusquam.

opus est + X ablative = "X is needed" or "necessary," not "customary."
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby pmda » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:42 pm

silly me - I did know that it was fut. participle but still understood it as a passive - which of course it isn't.

I'm not clear about how 'se' is working in this sentence. Is it that that Mettius tells the legate that 'he (i.e. Mettius NOT the legate) is about to bring him (Tullus) something that is as pertinent etc... ?
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby swtwentyman » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:36 pm

pmda wrote:silly me - I did know that it was fut. participle but still understood it as a passive - which of course it isn't.

I'm not clear about how 'se' is working in this sentence. Is it that that Mettius tells the legate that 'he (i.e. Mettius NOT the legate) is about to bring him (Tullus) something that is as pertinent etc... ?


Just looking at it, "se" would seem to be the subject (Mettius, through the legate) in indirect discourse (depending on "nuntiare"). I don't get what the quotation marks are doing there.
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:32 pm

It's indirect discourse and se refers to Mettius--some texts occasionally use quotation marks for indirect speech that's a word-for-word translation from direct speech.

By the way, on checking this, priusquam usually takes the indicative--less frequently the subjunctive--when referring to the future, but this is indirect speech.

A&G 551c:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D551

In direct speech, the subjunctive would more likely be used if Mettius were suggesting that they avoid a fight ("let's talk before we come to blows"), which I don't think is the case here. The premise of the message is that a battle will occur--but we need to discuss it beforehand. (Eventually, on Mettius' proposal, they do avoid a pitched battle between the opposing forces, agreeing instead to resolve their issues by a dual between two sets of three brothers.)

A&G 550:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D550
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby pmda » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:14 pm

Thanks Qimmik

In relation to your last point: when Mettius warns Tullus: "Illud te, Tulle, moneo: Etrusca res quanta sit, tu, quo propior es, eo magis scis"

- 'sit' is subjunctive and somewhat conditional. I think this means 'I warn you thus (of this?) Tullus: The Etruscan state is mighty, you who are nearer, know better'.

This subjunctive seems normal. Even in formal / polite English one might say: 'I warn you Tullus: you may find Etrusca very powerful.... ' Conditionality seems a polite form of address...?
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:41 pm

Etrusca res quanta sit -- this is subjunctive because it's an indirect question. "You know more by as much as you are closer, how great the Etruscan state is." Quanta is the question word here.

quo propior es, eo magis scis -- quo . . . eo is ablative of measure of difference. " . . . by as much as you are closer, by so much you know more . . . "

A&G sec. 414:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=AG+414&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby pmda » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:05 pm

Orberg doesn't put a question mark at the end of this. I was reading 'quanta' as simply 'how great'. I warn you that......
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:39 pm

It's an indirect question, so there is no question mark.

A&G sec. 573:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Apart%3D2%3Asection%3D11%3Asubsection%3D5%3Asmythp%3D573

A&G sec. 574:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Apart%3D2%3Asection%3D11%3Asubsection%3D5%3Asmythp%3D574

See example 3 in sec. 574:

“quam sīs audāx omnēs intellegere potuērunt ” (Rosc. Am. 87) , all could understand how bold you are. [Direct: quam es audāx!]
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby pmda » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:05 pm

But the text, as given by Orberg, puts it as direct speech in double quotation marks as follows:

Tullus colloquium haud recusat, sed tamen copias suas in aciem educit. Exeunt contra et Albani. Postquam instructi utrimque stabant, cum paucis comitibus in medium duces procedunt. Ibi orditur Albanus: "Iniuriae et res non redditae, quae ex foedere repetitae sunt, causa huius belli esse dicuntur. Sed si vera dicenda sunt, cupido imperii duos cognatos vicinosque populos ad arma stimulat. Illud te, Tulle, moneo: Etrusca res quanta sit, tu, quo propior es, eo magis scis. Multum illi terra, plurimum mari valent. Memor esto, iam cum signum pugnae dabis, has duas acies spectaculo fore Etruscis, ut pugna fessos confectosque, simul victorem ac victum, aggrediantur. Itaque — si nos di amant — ineamus aliquam viam, qua sine magna clade, sine multo sanguine utriusque populi decerni possit utri utris imperent."
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:13 pm

The indirect question is the complement of scis, within the quotation. "Indirect question" is perhaps a slightly misleading term. It's not really a question, but it is introduced by a question word, quanta.
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby pmda » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:33 pm

Seems to be a failure on my part to understand grammatical concepts.

How would it be rendered into English whilst preserving the indirect question form?
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:47 pm

Direct question: "How great is the Etruscan state?"

Indirect question: "You know how great the Etruscan state is." In English the word order is obligatory. Not so in Latin.
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby pmda » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:24 pm

Qimmik, thanks.
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby pmda » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:12 pm

Sed si vera dicenda sunt, cupido imperii duos cognatos vicinosque populos ad arma stimulat.

Sed si vera dicenda [vera res? / verba?] sunt....
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby pmda » Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:49 pm

...of course it's plural so it seems that it must be verba(?)
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Re: Orberg XLIII LnLn 42-48

Postby Qimmik » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:29 pm

Sed si vera dicenda sunt,

Vera is neuter plural -- it's indefinite, it could be translated "true things," or just ""truth" but no particular noun is to be understood, neither res (which is not neuter, of course), nor verba. This expression is equivalent to English "If truth be told . . . ", or "to tell the truth".

Allen & Greenough secs. 288-289:

288. Adjectives are often used as Nouns (substantively), the masculine usually to denote men or people in general of that kind, the feminine women, and the neuter things:—

* * *

289. * * *

b. The neuter plural is used to signify objects in general having the quality denoted, and hence may stand for the abstract idea:—

honesta, honorable deeds (in general). praeterita, the past (lit., bygones).

omnēs fortia laudant, all men praise bravery (brave things).

* * *


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D288

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D289
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