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aliquot, nonnulli, quidam -> Nominative or genitive

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aliquot, nonnulli, quidam -> Nominative or genitive

Postby kembreg » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:44 pm

Hello.

Can anyone should some light on the usue of 'aliquot', 'nonnulli', 'quidam' and 'aliqui'.

Allen and Greenough's is not entirely clear if these take the nominative or the genitive.

For example, taking the English sentence "I see some women"...

Would the Latin be rendered:

Aliquot feminae video
Nonnullae feminae video
Feminae quaedam video (or quaedam feminae??)
Aliquae feminae video
-----------------------------------
Or rather with the genitive?

Aliquot feminarum video
Nonnullae feminarum video
Quaedam feminarum video
Aliquae feminarum video
==============================================
In English, the single word "some" has two meanings.
(French shows this difference well: certaines femmes=SOME women, des femmes=some WOMEN)

I think the above (aliquot, nonnullae, quaedam, aliqae) tend to be translated more as the "SOME (but not all)" as opposed to the "some=a few=several".

Any comments on this would be greatly appreciated.

David
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Re: aliquot, nonnulli, quidam -> Nominative or genitive

Postby Qimmik » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:19 pm

First, the object of video in your examples would have to be accusative, not nominative: nonnullas/quasdam/aliquas feminas video.

Each of these words agrees in gender, number and case with the noun it modifies, and the case of the noun it modifies is determined by the noun's function in the sentence, not necessarily the genitive.

Aliquot is indeclinable, but the case of the noun it modifies is also determined by the noun's function in the sentence. Aliquot feminas video.
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Re: aliquot, nonnulli, quidam -> Nominative or genitive

Postby Qimmik » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:31 pm

aliquot/nonnullas/aliquas feminas video = I see some/a few women.

quasdam feminas video = I see certain women.
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Re: aliquot, nonnulli, quidam -> Nominative or genitive

Postby kembreg » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:20 pm

My apologies. Feeling just a little dumb there to be honest. Yes, understood, obviously, accusative with a transitive verb. So let's change the verb to "adesse". You answered confirming the accusative but there are many examples in texts using the genitive :

http://books.google.de/books?id=ebC-zeU ... CBsQ6AEwAA

"de laudibus aliquot feminarum "

Would really appreciate knowing which is right.
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Re: aliquot, nonnulli, quidam -> Nominative or genitive

Postby kembreg » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:44 pm

OK. I'm convinced. Just found the answer in a speech from cicerone with "aliquot annos".

Thanks.
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Re: aliquot, nonnulli, quidam -> Nominative or genitive

Postby whsiv » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:48 pm

It looks like in your example from Google books, de laudibus aliquot feminarum gentilium..., the context of the sentence is requiring the genitive. We are talking "about the renown of some pagan women." It is genitive because it's qualifying laudibus.
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Re: aliquot, nonnulli, quidam -> Nominative or genitive

Postby Qimmik » Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:21 pm

de laudibus aliquot feminarum gentilium

Aliquot is indeclinable, and therefore perhaps conceals the structure of this phrase to some degree. Feminarum is genitive not because it follows aliquot but because it depends on laudibus. Aliquot modifies feminarum. If quidam had been used, it would be de laudibus quarundam feminarum gentilicum.
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