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Augustinus, De Consensu evangelistarum, 14

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Augustinus, De Consensu evangelistarum, 14

Postby Shenoute » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:19 am

Hello,

I have trouble with the last part of the following sentence :
Ita vero isti desipiunt, ut illis libris, quos eum scripsisse existimant, dicant contineri eas artes, quibus eum putant illa fecisse miracula, quorum fama ubique percrebuit : quod existimando seipsos produnt quid diligant, et quid affectent.

"They even are so mad as to say that those books, which they believe he (=Christ) has written, contain the magical know-how by which he has performed the miracles whose fame has spread everywhere : by believing this they betray themselves..."

Could there be some kind of punctuation after produnt ? Are the two quid to be understood as object of produnt, like seipsos ?
> "the betray themselves, what they like and what they seek."

I guess part of my trouble is also that I did not expect quid but quod here.
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Re: Augustinus, De Consensu evangelistarum, 14

Postby Calgacus » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:10 pm

It seems that the indirect questions there (quid diligant...quid affectent) are being used in place of an accusative of respect, with the accusative being replaced by substantive clause (this can happen in other contexts, i.e. you can have rem intellego but also quid fecerint intellego).

In that case, the translation would be something like "In thinking this, they betray themselves as to what they like, and what they aim for." Or, more freely, "they reveal their very own predilections and aims."
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Re: Augustinus, De Consensu evangelistarum, 14

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:05 pm

This is an example of the "I know thee who thou art" construction, which is more common in (and probably borrowed from) Greek.

Allen & Greenough 576:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=AG+576&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001

I suppose A&G's "attraction" is as good a way to explain this as any, though it doesn't seem very satisfactory. It's a phenomenon of Latin syntax that doesn't work in English (except in the KJV), just as "WH-deletion" is a phenomenon of English that doesn't work in Latin or Greek.
Last edited by Qimmik on Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Augustinus, De Consensu evangelistarum, 14

Postby Shenoute » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:18 am

Thank you both for your answers.

Augustinus seems quite fond of quid in places where I find it a little disturbing. I guess that means I have lots of work (=reading to do) before I become more confortable with some use of the indirect questions.

De Consensu evangelistarum, 13 wrote:Restat ut ipsi velint testes esse de Christo, qui sibi auferunt meritum sciendi quid loquantur, loquendo quod nesciunt.
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Re: Augustinus, De Consensu evangelistarum, 14

Postby Qimmik » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:40 pm

sibi auferunt meritum sciendi quid loquantur, loquendo quod nesciunt.


The juxtaposition of the indirect question with quid and the subjunctive with the relative clause with [id] quod and the indicative (a statement of fact), coupled with the chiastic word order, is a clever and elegant way of emphasizing the subjects' ignorance.
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